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Old 03-23-2010, 08:24 AM   #91
PoundSand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59
If you know the town and the neighborhood where you want to buy, if you spend time learning what the current market is, if you know exactly what it is that you're looking for, then maybe you don't "need" a Realtor.
- 'the current market' - according to every realtor i've talked to, the market is always a good time to buy. beyond that... :P
- as far as neighborhoods, if i don't know where to buy, i sure as heck want to figure that out rather than having a realtor tell me.

Quote:
However, if you're not familiar with the area or the current market, and/or if you don't have the time to learn them, then a Realtor can be a good thing.
yeah, if for some reason you need to buy before you get educated, i guess.

Quote:
A good Realtor will be able to negotiate a good price for you and know all the people to call in order to help facilitate the deal... Surveyors, appraisers, inspectors, insurance agents, loan officers, title companies, etc...
my realtor on the house that i'm currently in told me to put in a full price bid. i said f' that and put in a lower bid and it got accepted. appraisers, inspectors, title agents, i can see, but, i got recommendations from friends, but why would i get a recommendation for insurance from a realtor?

Quote:
Sure, there are plenty of shitty part-time do-nothing Realtors out there. There are also plenty of helpful and knowledgeable Realtors... It's no different from any other profession...
i mean, they're generally helpful and knowledgable and all that. they still don't bring much value though. ;D
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:43 AM   #92
ImaPoser
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair
Now that is the worst advise I have read in a long time.

When buying a house, you need to have a buyers realtor or buyers attorney , depending what is customery in your neck of the woods, to look out for your interests.

Never purchase real property using just the sellers realtor.

AC

Buyers attorney, I can see. Buyers agent? Yeah, right. Unless you are writing them the check yourself, they ain't working for you.
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Old 03-23-2010, 09:25 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaPoser
Buyers attorney, I can see. Buyers agent? Yeah, right. Unless you are writing them the check yourself, they ain't working for you.
Exactly.

Maybe in the past, a realtor was good to help understand the nuances of the locale. With the internet, I can see very little value a buyer's realtor adds to the transaction. Maybe they help those who are unwilling/unable to do the research on their own.

The only reason I can see for a seller's agent is advertising and that is only because the real estate agents have a virtual monopoly with the MLS system.

No way in hell that justifies 7% of the sale price. Even the mafia would give you better terms.


BTW: Screw Firefox spell check. I am not capitalizing 'realtor'.
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Old 03-23-2010, 03:14 PM   #94
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Thank you for saving me a lot of typing, as you've pretty much nailed it here. In most forms of sales, particularly the forms we all seem to dread dealing with (automotive and real estate as noted in this thread) you've got 20% of the people who are doing 80% of the business and consider it a career, with the rest being transients just looking for a paycheck today. The chance that you're going to deal with a professional with a proven track record for ethics and integrity are pretty slim, and that's why we've all got horror stories. The reality of most of these transactions are that a month after the deal is done, hardly anyone can remember what they paid for their car, but they all remember the buying experience. I'm in the sports car business, and there's nothing I hate more than negotiating a car deal when I'm buying for myself, so I call someone I trust, tell them what I want, and they do what they can on price. I know the numbers, and I figure I'm probably leaving $500 on the table each time, but you couldn't pay me $500 to drive all over town and sit in a car dealership negotiating for half a day, especially for something I do once every 2-3 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by California
I am going over to the dark side....

Car salesman are just like you, they are employees of a company that has policies and procedures that they must follow. It has not always been this way! In the day, when you went into a dealership there would always be a couple of old pros, guys that had been salesman in the same store for years. Raised their families, bought their houses, sent their kids to college and were solid reliable members of their communities. When I first sold cars, we averaged about $100 a car in commission, now 40 years later, with inflation taken into account, salemen should be making about $546.00 a car. In fact they are making about $250 a car. This is why you can't find educated professional salesmen in a mainline car store. in the 60's the markup on a domestic car was 20 -25%, and the luxury marks as much as 35%, and a salesman was paid 25% - 35% of the gross profit. Now, markup ranges from as little as 7% and to a high of 20% and the salespeople get 15 -25%. I made as much money as a salesman in 1972 as most salesman make today, and that doesn't include any adjustment for 40 years of inflation. The other thing that happened is the advent of the "desk system". In the day, you would sit with a salesperson and work out the whole deal, and do the paperwork. Now, the salesperson has no authority to answer any questions regarding price or payment, he has to run back and forth to the manager, the man in the little office that you can't see! It reminds me of the Wizard of Oz, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Anyway, All of these techniques are because and designed to overcome the increased information available to consumers. No other industry in the world, not one, has it's costs and wholesale pricing published and readily available to anyone that wants to see it. Most customers say they don't want to play the game, but it is the customers that have created the game. If customers simply paid the price that is being asked, the entire process would be clear and simple, and everyone would get an equal, therefore, fair deal.

But the question still remains, what is fair, and what is a good deal? The one you got, because you agreed to it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. The dealer didn't make you sign, he didn't twist your arm, he didn't threaten your family! In the end, YOU made the decision and you are responsible for your deal. If you didn't like it, you shouldn't have signed! It's really that simple! The dealer has to make a profit in order to stay in business, and you don't want him to! Are you being fair to him when you say you want to pay only $200 over invoice on a $30000 product? What sort of profit margin to you have in your industry? Would your business survive without a profit? Would you invest $30000 to make only a 6 tenths of one percent return, no I don't think so, but you think a dealer should do it? And on top of that, you think he should be happy to have an argumentative, aggressive, uncooperative customer accross the desk from him, or worse, just on the phone asking for "his best price". Why would he give it to you, you're not there, and you most likely won't actually buy the car over the phone. You still have to go sit and sign. It's a no win situation for the dealers, and they have only the weak willed dealers among themselves to thank for it. Look at how Harley has been able to maintain retail pricing and excellent resale value, compare that to a Ford or Volkswagon or Nissan. But who has the most loyal and satisfied owner body? Do you think they go hand in glove? Let's talk about another industry for a moment...In retail fashion, who has the best reputation, of course Nordstorm's, and who has the highest markup, and profit and prices, yes that's right, Nordstroms! Always, the most satisfied customers are always the ones that spend the most.

I rant, a little, but it is the truth..............
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:16 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImaPoser
Buyers attorney, I can see. Buyers agent? Yeah, right. Unless you are writing them the check yourself, they ain't working for you.
A buyers agent is just that, they work exclusively for the buyer and by law and contract must put the needs and wants of the buyer first.

The MIL list on the web does not list all property for sale. Many are held back from the system and only avalible for review by Realtors only. A buyers agent should be able to tell you things you just cannot find out by yourself, like how many times has the current owner tried to sell his house? Has the house been sold before but the deal fell through? How desperate is the seller? Have they bought another house and need to sell the existing one quickly? What types of easments and how would that affect your offer?

A buyers agent should also be able to provide you with a list of escrow companies, termite and home inspection services.

Hiring a buyers agent takes time and due diigence on your part, interview several before making your selection.

As to who is paying the commision on the sell, make no bones about it, you the buyer are paying for everything, without your money, no one can pay for anything.

FWIW, the current home I own my buyers agent found out the house had "sold" two weeks earlier however the buyer was not able to get finianced and the seller had already purchased a home out of state and needed to sell quickly. Knowing the old "sold" price, I made my offer 15k lower and it only took 1 day for the seller to accept.

BTW, sorry for taking this thread off course.


AC
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Old 03-24-2010, 04:56 PM   #96
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green427
I've bought about 6 brand-new cars in my 29 years of driving.

Oddly, out of all the floor-whores that I've dealt with, the one that did NOT try to screw me over was the Kia dealership in town. Salesman left me alone to browse, when I asked to test drive a new Sorento, he brought one out quickly, told me to go out to lunch and come back.

He told me he was going to give me one price, and that price is final. It was about 25% below MSRP, including tax, tags, etc. I've already shopped around, his price was lower. I signed the papers.

Even the business manager did not ask me if I wanted to buy any of those stupid service contracts, insurance options, etc.

Smoothest transition ever.

And this Kia turns out to be as reliable as my old Accord.
In my car buying experience, I encountered 2 new car salesman that were frank, open, and honest like that. I bought a new car from each them, even though one did not have the lowest price. And returned and bought another new car within 2 years from each of them, I wrote the dealership owners and commended these guys as well, and even got one of them a $50 dinner gift certificate for how well he took care of me during the transaction.

Most others that I've dealt with, have been total asshats. Most of them don't even know how to open a hood on car. I even had one dealer try to sell me a 50,000 mile warranty on a CPO car that already came with a 7/70K warranty. This type of stuff is why car salesman have such a bad reputation.
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:14 PM   #97
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Eh?

I sold cars for 14yrs. The wisest words ever spoken to me were soon after I had started the job, and came from the owner of a major importer. 'The biggest lying cheating assholes you will encounter in your sales career will be customers'. He spoke the truth. I would never alter a vehicle after agreeing its sale to somebody,( trading-in is selling your vehicle to the dealer ), but customers have removed cd players,removed spare wheels,swopped wheels,removed the battery and put a dead one in,even swopped tyres for bald ones. Then there are the ones that forge service history,lie that it is a 06 when they bought it new in 05,and the ones that try to sell a stolen car.
Generally the customers were rude and demanding,and occaisionally threatening,though not all of them.
Eventually I walked away, sick and weary of having to be nice to assholes.
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:17 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Outlaw
The atmosphere contains 78% nitrogen.
They want to charge $999.
What a great deal.
And by default the air coming from the shop air compressor is also 78% Nitrogen without any extra effort on anyone's part.

$999 for a lifetime of free refills for the missing 22%. Such a deal!
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:34 PM   #99
rocker59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand
- 'the current market' - according to every realtor i've talked to, the market is always a good time to buy. beyond that... :P
- as far as neighborhoods, if i don't know where to buy, i sure as heck want to figure that out rather than having a realtor tell me.
Never relocated to a new city, I suppose...


Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand
yeah, if for some reason you need to buy before you get educated, i guess.
New to town. Work schedule. Etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand
my realtor on the house that i'm currently in told me to put in a full price bid. i said f' that and put in a lower bid and it got accepted. appraisers, inspectors, title agents, i can see, but, i got recommendations from friends, but why would i get a recommendation for insurance from a realtor?
It doesn't sound like your Realtor was working in your best interest on that deal. Unfortunately, there are bad as well as good people in every business.

Why an insurance recommendation? Homeowners Insurance. 1st Time Buyers or someone who prefers to use independent agents. I've referred several clients to insurance agents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PoundSand
-
i mean, they're generally helpful and knowledgable and all that. they still don't bring much value though. ;D
There are lots of under-informed agents out there. Lots of good ones, too. It depends on how you want to use the agent to help you make the deal. No one "needs" an agent, or any of the other people in the transaction. If you have cash, all you need is a seller and a clerk at the county courthouse to file the deed... ;-)
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Old 03-24-2010, 10:43 PM   #100
rocker59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armchair
A buyers agent is just that, they work exclusively for the buyer and by law and contract must put the needs and wants of the buyer first.

The MIL list on the web does not list all property for sale. Many are held back from the system and only avalible for review by Realtors only. A buyers agent should be able to tell you things you just cannot find out by yourself, like how many times has the current owner tried to sell his house? Has the house been sold before but the deal fell through? How desperate is the seller? Have they bought another house and need to sell the existing one quickly? What types of easments and how would that affect your offer?

A buyers agent should also be able to provide you with a list of escrow companies, termite and home inspection services.

Hiring a buyers agent takes time and due diigence on your part, interview several before making your selection.

As to who is paying the commision on the sell, make no bones about it, you the buyer are paying for everything, without your money, no one can pay for anything.

FWIW, the current home I own my buyers agent found out the house had "sold" two weeks earlier however the buyer was not able to get finianced and the seller had already purchased a home out of state and needed to sell quickly. Knowing the old "sold" price, I made my offer 15k lower and it only took 1 day for the seller to accept.

BTW, sorry for taking this thread off course.


AC
+1
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:30 AM   #101
PoundSand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocker59
Never relocated to a new city, I suppose...
sure i have.

Quote:
New to town. Work schedule. Etc.
it sure seems like it'd be a better idea to figure out what parts of town you're interested in rather than having someone else tell you. but that's just me. ;D


Quote:
It doesn't sound like your Realtor was working in your best interest on that deal.
what?! but she was a buyer's agent- i understand that she's supposed to protect me by law! seriously though, i think she thought she was doing the "right" thing, but thing is, they don't *really* know any better than you do (once you've looked at comps and such to make sure you're not out in left field) whether someone is going to accept an offer or not.
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Old 03-26-2010, 03:52 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLeR650
I just bought a new car last week. The listed price was $1200. I said $900. THe guy thinks for a moment and says "Well I really wanted at least $1000, so lets split the difference." So I'm there thinking, ok 1200-900=300 300/2=150 900+150=$1050. Sounds good enough. But before I can say OK he continues on, and says "So how about 950?" He split the difference between what he wanted and my offer not between the asking price and my offer! A hundred bucks is a hundred bucks, made my weekend.

Man, writing a check for 35 grand for a used car. I can't imagine. Wouldn't you rather go on a trip or something? Don't you have anything better to spend your money on then looking like 95% of the other jerks in the grocery store parking lot?
Actually I went on a 5200 mile bike trip two years ago, Punta Cana last year, a three day ride in the Ozarks this year, and Vegas (again) last month. I am leaving July 9th for a zig-zag trip across the western US and then north to Alaska. I estimate the trip will be between 21-30 days. Come along, maybe we could share opinions that really matter.
The car is for my wife. She has put up with my motorcycle addiction for more than 5 years. Everything from racing to switching to a new bike every year or so. She wants a CPO BMW, she gets one. Its a great car with a great safety record. It will be covered for 6 total years and 100k. I could care less if you dont like my spending practices. I make good money and will spend it as I see fit. Thanks for you opinion.
On a lighter note we found a salesman that is proving to be very helpful, unlike most I have come across.
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Old 03-26-2010, 05:15 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdub1242
Actually I went on a 5200 mile bike trip two years ago, Punta Cana last year, a three day ride in the Ozarks this year, and Vegas (again) last month. I am leaving July 9th for a zig-zag trip across the western US and then north to Alaska. I estimate the trip will be between 21-30 days. Come along, maybe we could share opinions that really matter.
The car is for my wife. She has put up with my motorcycle addiction for more than 5 years. Everything from racing to switching to a new bike every year or so. She wants a CPO BMW, she gets one. Its a great car with a great safety record. It will be covered for 6 total years and 100k. I could care less if you dont like my spending practices. I make good money and will spend it as I see fit. Thanks for you opinion.
On a lighter note we found a salesman that is proving to be very helpful, unlike most I have come across.
First, sounds like a great trip. Second, I dont have any opinions that matter. Third, you dont owe me an explanation, why so defensive? Whats the root of that insecurity?
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Old 03-27-2010, 07:05 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trail Ryder
In my car buying experience, I encountered 2 new car salesman that were frank, open, and honest like that. I bought a new car from each them, even though one did not have the lowest price. And returned and bought another new car within 2 years from each of them, I wrote the dealership owners and commended these guys as well, and even got one of them a $50 dinner gift certificate for how well he took care of me during the transaction.

Most others that I've dealt with, have been total asshats. Most of them don't even know how to open a hood on car. I even had one dealer try to sell me a 50,000 mile warranty on a CPO car that already came with a 7/70K warranty. This type of stuff is why car salesman have such a bad reputation.
I sold cars for about 6 years before retiring, and worked at three dealerships: BMW, Land Rover and a combined VW-Subaru-Honda shop.

I saw quite a bit of despicable behavior from both sides. I also saw quite a bit of refreshing straightforward attitude mainly at the BMW dealership. Basically, it all boils down to the business culture and integrity of both the dealer and the buyer. The salesman is usually between those powers and tries to carry a balancing act. He knows that the client is trying to get something for nothing and that his boss is trying to get the most for what he has.

I would not work again at a dealership which does not allow me to fire a customer.
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:51 PM   #105
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Well, I finally got around to buying a truck today.

The dealership that I liked most was open today (Sunday) for one last promotional push.

Went in to look at a specific 3/4 ton that the salesman had called me on, drove it, drove a 1/2 ton just like it and decided on the 3/4.

Either way, we had a great experience dealing with the salesman, sales manager, and F&I guy. The only back and forth nonsense was caused by my wife and I- they came right out of the box with an exceptionally low price. I had some oddball questions that the salesman didn't know the answer to, and then I squeezed them some more for a spray-in bedliner. All in all another great car buying experience- and as long as I have room for a GMC product I'll support this dealer in the future. It's funny how I've always had a good experience with dealers- might have something to do with the attitude that I bring to the table.
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