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Old 06-16-2012, 09:47 PM   #241
Pete-NZ
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Dam it..
I had to go back to the heading to refresh myself on what this thread was about..
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Old 06-16-2012, 11:32 PM   #242
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Yeah, tell me about it. I have to do the same meself on occasion.
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Old 06-17-2012, 12:55 AM   #243
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The stock TLR frame is not that bad really, and we have never had any problems with cracking on bikes being ridden in the UK twin-shock championship. I would guess that the cause of any cracking is likely to be related to bikes with stock suspension (very poor) being ridden in serious competition, and suspension bottoming out becoming too much for the frame after a while.
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Old 06-17-2012, 01:10 AM   #244
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I know you comitted to riding vintage this year and so far kickin` ass. But do really take that pile with you everywhere!!!!!!!!!
Take a reflex with you to a flat track. Portable, variable speed, off road chair? Just add Tecate cup holders.
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Old 06-17-2012, 05:23 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
The stock TLR frame is not that bad really, and we have never had any problems with cracking on bikes being ridden in the UK twin-shock championship. I would guess that the cause of any cracking is likely to be related to bikes with stock suspension (very poor) being ridden in serious competition, and suspension bottoming out becoming too much for the frame after a while.
I'am VERY SUSPICIOUS about the physical coherences between a Honda Reflex standard suspension and a probably better suspension, depending cracks to frames as the force on earth with: 9,81 m/s² is everywhere the same?

But You never know may be here we will discover in the answer a new Nobel prize
Or the increasing of hernaited disks?

Very interesting thread in epic as in scientific matter, I might consider to get one of these Honda 4-strokes for my personal mental training too ???

PSchrauber screwed with this post 06-17-2012 at 08:36 AM Reason: messed with fonts, now fixed
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Old 06-17-2012, 05:43 AM   #246
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A TLR running in a UK championship series currently, has modern 38mm forks, and special long travel rear shocks. The rider has already broken two 4140 front spindles, even though the bike has modern forks fitted. This being the case its very easy to see how problems with an ERW frame, when used in extreme conditions (Reflex suspension in serious competition for instance) might occur.

Most of the rear suspension forces are going to be directed into areas where the wishbone frame tubes are joined to the tank tube. Bikes which are forcefully bottomed out, or have been ridden very hard in the past, will almost certainly have crack damage on these welds. Solution is to TIG weld the cracks, and fit rear suspension that works better.
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Old 06-17-2012, 06:08 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
A TLR running in a UK championship series currently, has modern 38mm forks, and special long travel rear shocks. The rider has already broken two 4140 front spindles, even though the bike has modern forks fitted. This being the case its very easy to see how problems with an ERW frame, when used in extreme conditions (Reflex suspension in serious competition for instance) might occur.

Most of the rear suspension forces are going to be directed into areas where the wishbone frame tubes are joined to the tank tube. Bikes which are forcefully bottomed out, or have been ridden very hard in the past, will almost certainly have crack damage on these welds. Solution is to TIG weld the cracks, and fit rear suspension that works better.
Using 38mm forks on twinshocks is illegal in Germany as this is not a contemporary component for this class, you will be excluded from classic competitions with this setup.

In my experience you only can take serious obstacles and steps with a good suspension, with a "sponge bob" type suspension it will plain and moving said: not work.

When it not work there is no big risk to crack something beside going downhill down steps ... but in my limited empirical knowledge you only can go down in a section after you have before got up hill or vica verce of course.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:42 AM   #248
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Like it or not damage to frames is greatly increased when old twin-shock bikes are being used in serious modern competition, and are still fitted with 30 year old suspension that doesnt work that well. Its astonishing that many riders are quite prepared to spend considerable amounts of money on new frames, alterations to motors etc etc, but when it comes to suspension a low price and trick looking appearance, seem to be much more important than parts which work properly.
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Old 06-17-2012, 07:47 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post

Solution is to TIG weld the cracks, and fit rear suspension that works better.
My solution was to sell it as a trail bike, and start riding a trials bike made for trials.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:00 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Like it or not damage to frames is greatly increased when old twin-shock bikes are being used in serious modern competition, and are still fitted with 30 year old suspension that doesnt work that well.
I don't care what other people sometimes do for silly things so where is the beef?

I might feel sad about the absent of the right use of resources, if we can assume any "feeling's" in that matter.

Certainly any novice and beginner route in modern trials competitions is OK for a used twinshock, there you find rarly larger steps or obstacles. Anyone riding in expert class in modern trials with old unprepared weared out twinshock bike, well should at least ask him self if he is really in the right place.

For getting fun with outright junk the easiest way to do is using it just to ride for fun! Also in likewise events that are held for these type of bikes like classic trials.

Riding the bike in modern events is tremendous exhausting. I personal leave this to masochists or likewise orientated people ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Its astonishing that many riders are quite prepared to spend considerable amounts of money on new frames, alterations to motors etc etc, but when it comes to suspension a low price and trick looking appearance, seem to be much more important than parts which work properly.
Mmmh haven't heard, read or seen this, not in TC, not at trialforum not in reality! Most riders - and me too - are very picky about the suspension of their bikes.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:18 AM   #251
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Most TS riders here in the UK use 30 year old front forks, and rear units which are based on a design 30 years old. From the same perspective everyone uses modern tyres, and some have highly modified motors, and even modern frames which have been recently manufactured. Just dont get the reason why suspension always seems to be an afterthought, and why very few seem to understand how important this is on a TS bike?
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:29 AM   #252
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We have been having `FUN`! At our local event We do not have enough vintage riders. So some ride the novice line, a few ride amatuer, and I usually ride Intermediate to try to be fair. It sure is hard to beat an old time rider that rides the novice line well. At the end of the day we combine our scores to make up our twinshock class. As far as I`m concerned we are all winners because we are just having FUN.
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Old 06-17-2012, 09:37 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Most TS riders here in the UK use 30 year old front forks, and rear units which are based on a design 30 years old. From the same perspective everyone uses modern tyres, and some have highly modified motors, and even modern frames which have been recently manufactured. Just dont get the reason why suspension always seems to be an afterthought, and why very few seem to understand how important this is on a TS bike?
Do what you wan't but don't try to ride in most classic events on the continent with an hybrid bike that has fitted not contemporary parts, there are exeptions like shocks, handlebars, ... even the Spaniards have changed the rules here.

It is no problem to rebuild a worn out fork, the betors are quite good when they in as new condition again.

Certainly it is a problem to rebuild most of the original non rebuildable rear shocks, but there are already good shocks as an replacements available and this is legal even on the continent.

IMHO the problem are the costs for a rebuild of a fork, take 200 - 250 € for an aligned, rechromed and polished pair of stanchions that are just these 1/10mm bigger in diameter to compensate the wear of the lower outer tubes. Then machining the outer tubes, another 100 €, to get them round again. All in all around 350 - 500 € will you have to spend to rebuild a pair of forks. That is may be the reason some guys use newer once.

To the design of a twinshock rear suspension. It is a twinshock!, The obstacels and steps got higher after the twinshocks with the monos because with these monos and their progressive rear shocks you can climb much higher difficult steps with ease then with a twinshock. One of the reasons its wasted time to ride twinshocks in modern events in higher classes in my opinion.
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Old 06-17-2012, 10:12 AM   #254
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Sadly those making various parts "illegal" by their "rules" dont seem to understand that its often less costly to fit things like modern forks, which work better and can be found used for maybe half the cost of rebuilding badly worn originals.

By the same token these people would probably accept modern frames, which provide far more of an advantage than 38mm forks, and are certainly something that gives an edge to anyone with money to spend.

As to rear shocks, a TS bike fitted with modern shocks made by people like Willbers, Ohlin, or Maxton, if the rear geometry is right, performs far better than anything fitted with the cheaply made and rather crude shocks which are popular for TS trials currently.

The situation in Spain seems almost as ridiculous as here in the UK, in that highly modified Spanish machines, with modern chrom moly frames, and very special motors costing around £3k to build, are being used in classes supposedly intended for authentic machines with original type spec.
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Old 06-17-2012, 11:16 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
Sadly those making various parts "illegal" by their "rules" dont seem to understand that its often less costly to fit things like modern forks, which work better and can be found used for maybe half the cost of rebuilding badly worn originals.
If non contemporaray parts would be allowed where is the border, in terms of equal technical conditions of each bike.
This would be very unsporting if someone that want to take part with a bone stock bike has to "conquer" against highly technical pimped bikes that uses parts and constructions that wasn't invented when the rest of the bike was produced. This is a no go in competition as this spoils fair play.

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By the same token these people would probably accept modern frames, which provide far more of an advantage than 38mm forks, and are certainly something that gives an edge to anyone with money to spend.
Wrong this is against the rules, http://www.ortwinsann.de/D-Cup/Austr...gen%202012.pdf, modern frames are illegal and heavy modifications for twinshocks frames are fierced discussed, sometimes allowed sometimes excluded!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
As to rear shocks, a TS bike fitted with modern shocks made by people like Willbers, Ohlin, or Maxton, if the rear geometry is right, performs far better than anything fitted with the cheaply made and rather crude shocks which are popular for TS trials currently.
The old shocks are mostly not repairable and by the way some of them did work very well and would do their work even today!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
The situation in Spain seems almost as ridiculous as here in the UK, in that highly modified Spanish machines, with modern chrom moly frames, and very special motors costing around £3k to build, are being used in classes supposedly intended for authentic machines with original type spec.
As I already wrote the Spaniards have now changed the rules, and as I could follow their news will elaborate their rules from season to season. That the Spanish riders like to pimp their bikes in optical matter is something you have to think away.

Anyway stricter rules about a contemporary setup of a bike help's fair play and eleminates unhealthy competition thaughts you take part because you want to meet the other guys and have fun not to win. Here in Germany there often isn't even a referee at the sections, the participants will divide in small groups where each other scores.

Cheating or long discussions with this method of ranking will not appear and it is very efficient, no long line up's in front of certain sections. Certainly this will only work if you accept this community and their rules, by doing this you can even have with outright junk a lot of fun. As the "riding quality" between a worn out fork from 1982 and a rebuild one from 1982 isn't so remarkable.

We don't have to forget it's a hobby, for hard competition and bla bla bla the people should go to modern trials with modern equipment.
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