Fun with Outright Junk

[Twin-shocker]

In terms of forks, anyone with a fair amount of money to spend can have a set of 35mm forks which work better than any 38mm production parts currently available. Allowing some modern parts such as forks do mean an inexpensive improvement to suspension, but its not any great advantage in classic events as the sections tend to be on the easy side at most. Reduced cost is the main thing in favour of allowing parts such as forks.

Its a good thing that modern frames are banned in Europe. Not the case here in the UK unfortunately, where costly modern frames are already the norm in top level P65, and likely to become the case in TS as well in time, which will mean machine build costs in excess of £6k at a minimum!

Difficult to compare performance of shocks unless you have tried modern ones on your TS bike, but the difference is more noticeable than that between a properly set up brand new Ohlins on a modern bike, and a worn out OE part on the same machine.

If the Spanish feel its fair to allow recently re-manufactured TS machines using crom moly frames, cartridge forks, many carbon and Ti parts, as well as highly modified motors, to compete in classes intended supposedly for authentic 60s, 70s, 80s machines, then they are following the example of the Scottish "P65" 2 day, where modern Brit twin-shocks compete as "P65's"......................That to me is certainly cheating, but as classic competition in Spain has a lot of interest from very wealthy people, its probably seen as being ok.

[brewtus]

Originally Posted by PSchrauber

Very nice done and certainly an upgrade for the stability of the frame.

The Japanese guys needed a long time to catch up with proper frame welding. Also there antiquarianism with welded
on cable mounts and wire tabs is contrary with good frame setup, a real piece of steel as shown here in addition lightened is a real improvement.

Thank you for the kind words. Let's hope it helps.

Originally Posted by lineaway

I know you comitted to riding vintage this year and so far kickin` ass. But do really take that pile with you everywhere!!!!!!!!!
Take a reflex with you to a flat track. Portable, variable speed, off road chair? Just add Tecate cup holders.

I was gonna ride it today anyway. Besides, neither bike even got unloaded at the races last night. The howling windy duststorm conditions made me just leave 'em in the van.

Looks like this thread blew up today. Sorry I was not around to join the festivities, but I was out having. Fun. With. Outright. Junk.





It is after all, the name of the thread.

[PSchrauber]

Originally Posted by Twin-shocker

In terms of forks, anyone with a fair amount of money to spend can have a set of 35mm forks which work better than any 38mm production parts currently available. Allowing some modern parts such as forks do mean an inexpensive improvement to suspension, but its not any great advantage in classic events as the sections tend to be on the easy side at most. Reduced cost is the main thing in favour of allowing parts such as forks.

Here I have my doubts, I had to rechrome and align the stanchions for my Bultaco, a "well known" 35mm Betor fork where the chrome was OK (not nice) but sadly the stanchions where bent. I knew the fix will be costly so I looked at craiglists in Europe and found another fork in France for a good price.

I bought the second pair and the stanchions of the other fork where straight but the chrome was badly pittet and scratched at some spots, so both pairs got the same treatment here. All for tubes went for processing which was OK as with the double amount of tubes I could get a much cheaper price. Both forks got better seals, new valves, new piston silde bushings, new oil, the lower tubes where overhauled too. The second fork additional got special springs adjustable fork caps and we enhanced the valves inside, (here I had help from the northern KTM racing shop that is very well equiped with all the special tools and machinery they also repair WP and Öhlins forks and shocks).

The result was very good, the responding is improved, also the second fork is now really progressive and the spring adjustable, there is a difference in overall performance between them but still the better fork pair is far away compared to a more modern 38mm fork.

Due to the diameter increase of the 38mm stanchions and that these forks often have much better guide bushings then the old fashion 35mm.

The pair that where mounted to the bike:


The second pair from Thônes:


After rebuild:


Anyway to spend some money in the forks is worth the much better riding, in my experience when forks get weard out you have a soft front, every order you give to the front like steering or weight shift will be either followed in "slow motion" or with a delay, just new seals and oil will not cure this phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Twin-shocker

Its a good thing that modern frames are banned in Europe. Not the case here in the UK unfortunately, where costly modern frames are already the norm in top level P65, and likely to become the case in TS as well in time, which will mean machine build costs in excess of £6k at a minimum!.

Yep and to be expected!

Originally Posted by Twin-shocker

Difficult to compare performance of shocks unless you have tried modern ones on your TS bike, but the difference is more noticeable than that between a properly set up brand new Ohlins on a modern bike, and a worn out OE part on the same machine.

Even a hypermodern pair of shocks will not make the rear as good as most monoshock setups with lever-operation.
There are very good Shocks availabe which don't need any lever-operation but these have additonal cartridges, are mostly designed as a monoshock and where will you place the cartridges? The little above standard shocks will work fine IMHO for very good riders.

Originally Posted by Twin-shocker

If the Spanish feel its fair to allow recently re-manufactured TS machines using crom moly frames, cartridge forks, many carbon and Ti parts, as well as highly modified motors, to compete in classes intended supposedly for authentic 60s, 70s, 80s machines, then they are following the example of the Scottish "P65" 2 day, where modern Brit twin-shocks compete as "P65's"......................That to me is certainly cheating, but as classic competition in Spain has a lot of interest from very wealthy people, its probably seen as being ok.

Many bike owner in Spain pimp their ride, they even chrome the frame but also exhausts and engine side cases, if they like it, can afford it let them do it. It really looks often very nice too.

[PSchrauber]

Originally Posted by brewtus

Thank you for the kind words. Let's hope it helps.

I was gonna ride it today anyway. Besides, neither bike even got unloaded at the races last night. The howling windy duststorm conditions made me just leave 'em in the van.

Looks like this thread blew up today. Sorry I was not around to join the festivities, but I was out having. Fun. With. Outright. Junk.



It is after all, the name of the thread.

Wrenching around is pleasent but riding is just so much nicer!

[trailwing]

The Honda reflex is he most awesomist bike ever made... Besides my CT125.

[Twin-shocker]

Maybe those making the rules related to TS and P65 trials dont understand there is a real need to reduce, and not increase build costs? Last pair of modern forks I bought cost £75, and other than seals were in perfect working order, so cost about half what I guess it would be to modify a Bultaco top yoke to get rid of the tiller bar mounts?

Without trying modern TS suspension units in direct comparison to the outdated stuff favoured by most riders, its difficult to have that good an idea of how much better the modern units work. But anyone who has been riding for a while will probably remember the dreadful old 4 ply trials tyres? Comparing these to modern radials gives a good idea of the improvement to be expected when you have working rear suspension fitted.

Personally I feel that allowing people to ride what to all intents and purposes are modern machines, in events intended for older bikes, is ultimately going to kill the sport, as it will become difficult/impossible to compete unless you have the very latest bike. The modern machine thing is very noticeable in "P65" trials here in the UK, and this trend has been aped by the Spanish in allowing re-manufactured new TS
machines to compete in classes intended for authentic bikes (which are far less competitive).

Perhaps its time to introduce the idea of a completely new class for TS machines, where the only requirements would be air cooled motor, drum brakes and 2x rear shocks? This would mean greatly reduced costs, and mean something comparable to the very costly modern Spanish TS bikes (£8-10K), could be put together for around a 1/4 of the money.

[brewtus]

I must admit I'm fascinated by the conversation between Twinshocker and PSchrauber. Sounds like (at least to me) that vintage Trials competitions in parts of Europe have gone the way of vintage Roadracing has here in the States. Time was one could dig up an old CB, VF, KZ, GPz, GS, RD, SR, or what have you, make it oil-tight (somewhat) and running well, wire it up, prep it, and be competitive in a national vintage event if you had the talent. Those days are long over. Modern forks held in place with forged alloy triples, 17-inch wheels with big brakes, trick aftermarket aluminum swingarms with trick suspension components are just the bare minimum to be competitive nowadays. Roller-bearing camshafts, H-beam connecting rods, and complete custom transmissions (among many other "upgrades") are now De-riguer among the competitive. I'm given to understand that for the British Twin racers, the "upgrades" go even further than that.

Not that I'm necessarily opposed to that sort of....well...prep to a "vintage" racer (the finished product us almost always stunning, and the fact it is ridden in anger afterward really pumps up the cool factor IMHO), but it has turned Vintage Roadracing away from the "commonfolk". I had a VF500F Interceptor roadracer project a number of years ago, just when the trend was starting. I had accumulated a pile of F2 and F3 CBR suspension parts for it, and was starting to accumulate the rest of the parts needed to finish when this "trend" really took off. Suddenly, cheap VF parts became very expensive VF parts, and of dubious quality. I finally gave up a year ago and sold the base VF500F (minus some of the nicer bits and ALL of the "trick" stuff I had accumulated) to some kid who has undoubtedly destroyed it by now. I just could not afford to finish it. My '83 GPz 550 (an ex-racebike itself), and my '79 RD400F (lots of track time, but never truly raced) are neat, but would never be competitive in their near-stock current iterations today. Shame, as they were competitive "back then".

As far as I can tell this has not hit vintage Trials in the US just yet, although I'm given to understand there was a "really trick" TLR at the Nationals in Colorado. I've not seen pics of this machine yet so I cannot verify the "trickness" of it, I'm just taking the word of those who saw it. The last AHRMA and NATC Nationals I attended had very much "period correct" twinshock machines competing in them, although it has been a year since I've been to a National of any sort. OJ and I will be competing the MWVTA National in Roswell, NM in October. Maybe then I can get a feel of what is trending with vintage Trials in North America. We'll see.

[Rockcat]

Whatever you choose, high tech vintage vs low tech vintage, I thought you hit the perfect point, "Fun". I just bought a BSA A10 scrambler for AHRMA VMX and I'm going to race it as is. I'm not going win, but WTF I'm not going to win if I spend 10K more.

[brewtus]

Originally Posted by gvadney

Whatever you choose, high tech vintage vs low tech vintage, I thought you hit the perfect point, "Fun". I just bought a BSA A10 scrambler for AHRMA VMX and I'm going to race it as is. I'm not going win, but WTF I'm not going to win if I spend 10K more.

Well said. Its all in the perspective, isn't it?

OJ and I will do our best for the rest of the NMTA season and in the MWVTA National in October. We will have....Fun.

[Twin-shocker]

The fact is that here in the UK the "P65" trials class has become completely ridiculous with all higher level events being dominated by recently built Brit powered twin-shock machines, some of which cost £10k+ to build!

This has come about largely due to no proper system of rules, and in the Scottish "P65" 2 day in May, there was an instance of a Spanish rider being excluded for not having modern day billet alloy hubs fitted to his bike, yet others riding post 65 4 speed BSA Bantams, fitted with Fantic cylinder and head had no problems whatever.


Ever increasing costs tend to reduce access to the sport and make it less enjoyable, as sections are made harder to cater for the trick bikes, and those without the very latest machines struggle to cope, and very often pack up, or take up riding a modern.

Twin-shock is starting to go the same way as "P65" in the UK, and as no one seems interested in making any changes to prevent this happening, I guess its just a matter of time before modern day twin-shock bikes costing £10k+ become as common as they are in the P65 class.

[Pete-NZ]

This might to a good thread to ask in...

Is it still possable to get parts for a 1977 Montessa cota 348..
looking at one at the moment.. looks to missing the air box

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...89834_full.jpg

http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoser...90149_full.jpg

[Twin-shocker]

Parts for Montesa can still be found, but some are likely to be difficult/impossible, so if you intend to use bike in competition, it might be a better idea to look at something where parts are more easily available?

[Pete-NZ]

Originally Posted by Twin-shocker

Parts for Montesa can still be found, but some are likely to be difficult/impossible, so if you intend to use bike in competition, it might be a better idea to look at something where parts are more easily available?

Thanks..

Mostly thinking of engine parts...

[ridenm]

I have a truly rare and historic piece I would like to sell. It's the original axe that George Washington used to chop down his father's cherry tree. Of course, over the years, I've had to do some maintenance. Let's see: I've replaced the head six times, most recently with the latest high-density alloy that doesn't rust, takes an edge, and keeps it well; and I've replaced the handle nine times, now with a really nice rubber-gripped composite that feels great in the hand and dampens all the vibration of blows.

OK, so it's not really GW's axe anymore, but it still occupies the same metaphorical space.

[NMTrailboss]

Originally Posted by ridenm

I have a truly rare and historic piece I would like to sell. It's the original axe that George Washington used to chop down his father's cherry tree. Of course, over the years, I've had to do some maintenance. Let's see: I've replaced the head six times, most recently with the latest high-density alloy that doesn't rust, takes an edge, and keeps it well; and I've replaced the handle nine times, now with a really nice rubber-gripped composite that feels great in the hand and dampens all the vibration of blows.

OK, so it's not really GW's axe anymore, but it still occupies the same metaphorical space.

So what are you trying to say?