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Old 01-21-2011, 06:06 AM   #76
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fiep View Post
didn't we see this link before?
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242261
beware very graphic
but clearly shows why I will NOT lube my chain A1fa's way
I'll rather buy a new chain thousand miles earlier
new fingers are hard to come by these days
Yep, had a friend who learned this the hard way back in the day with his CB350. .........crinch...........
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Old 01-25-2011, 10:36 PM   #77
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Question for the OP, what's the tooth (teeth?) counts of the front and rear sprockets?

The following is from a post I made to another forum addressing a question about why a chain's slack varied at different points. It's equally applicable to rapid chain wear and explains why the tooth numbers can make a difference to chain life:

"Chain/sprocket wear is usually pretty even, but some front/rear sprocket combinations can lead to uneven sprocket wear, and this can be a significant factor in slack variations. This depends on the sprocket teeth ratios. I don't know the proper technical/mathematical terms for this, it so I'll illustrate by a few examples based on front/rear tooth counts:
A good sprocket combination count is 15/44 (or any combination where there are no common factors between the front/rear totals).
A poor one is 16/44 (or any even/even numbered count combination since they have a common factor of 2)
A bad one is 15/45 (a common factor of 3).

I'll illustrate with a postulated example of a rear sprocket with a damaged tooth.
Every time that tooth pulls on a link, there will be some unevenness or additional stress when they meet.

If, over the course of several rotations, every link mates with that damaged tooth the same number of times, additional wear caused by it will be distributed evenly. The chain may wear out faster, but it should still wear out evenly.

However, if the sprocket combination leads to some links hitting the damaged tooth and other links missing it (which is what will happen if it's an even/even front/rear tooth count combo) the additional stress from the damaged tooth will be concentrated on just half of the links and the chain will wear faster. Any variations in wear will be magnified since the affected links are stressed twice as often.

The 15/45 count is particularly bad because now only 1/3 of the links are taking the extra stress and will wear out even faster.

The same effect would occur with a damaged link putting stress on the sprockets. If the combination is a good one, the stress is evenly distributed to all of the sprockets.

Chain length does not matter to the above, all chains have an even number of teeth.

I had personal experience with the 15/45 combination on my 2003 SV650 (naked) The chain required frequent adjustment and was shot after 12,000 miles (I've gotten 37, 44 and 52K out of my chains on the VFR, I used the same lube procedures on the SV, so maintenance abuse was not a factor) and the slack variation was so bad if I adjusted for proper slack at a loose point, I couldn't even turn the wheel past a tight spot (adjusting for proper slack at the tight spot left me with sections where I could pull links clear of the teeth at the back of the rear sprocket). I replaced the front sprocket with another OEM 15 tooth one and got a new DID chain. I replaced the rear 45 tooth sprocket with a 44 tooth sprocket that was an OEM piece for the SV650S and that combination was still going strong with almost no adjustments needed when I sold the bike at 33,000 miles."
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Old 01-26-2011, 09:13 AM   #78
allonsye
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On achieving maximum chain/sprocket life

Quote:
Originally Posted by MapMaster View Post
Question for the OP, what's the tooth (teeth?) counts of the front and rear sprockets?

The following is from a post I made to another forum addressing a question about why a chain's slack varied at different points. It's equally applicable to rapid chain wear and explains why the tooth numbers can make a difference to chain life:

"Chain/sprocket wear is usually pretty even, but some front/rear sprocket combinations can lead to uneven sprocket wear, and this can be a significant factor in slack variations. This depends on the sprocket teeth ratios. I don't know the proper technical/mathematical terms for this, it so I'll illustrate by a few examples based on front/rear tooth counts:
A good sprocket combination count is 15/44 (or any combination where there are no common factors between the front/rear totals).
A poor one is 16/44 (or any even/even numbered count combination since they have a common factor of 2)
A bad one is 15/45 (a common factor of 3).

I'll illustrate with a postulated example of a rear sprocket with a damaged tooth.
Every time that tooth pulls on a link, there will be some unevenness or additional stress when they meet.

If, over the course of several rotations, every link mates with that damaged tooth the same number of times, additional wear caused by it will be distributed evenly. The chain may wear out faster, but it should still wear out evenly.

However, if the sprocket combination leads to some links hitting the damaged tooth and other links missing it (which is what will happen if it's an even/even front/rear tooth count combo) the additional stress from the damaged tooth will be concentrated on just half of the links and the chain will wear faster. Any variations in wear will be magnified since the affected links are stressed twice as often.

The 15/45 count is particularly bad because now only 1/3 of the links are taking the extra stress and will wear out even faster.

The same effect would occur with a damaged link putting stress on the sprockets. If the combination is a good one, the stress is evenly distributed to all of the sprockets.

Chain length does not matter to the above, all chains have an even number of teeth.

I had personal experience with the 15/45 combination on my 2003 SV650 (naked) The chain required frequent adjustment and was shot after 12,000 miles (I've gotten 37, 44 and 52K out of my chains on the VFR, I used the same lube procedures on the SV, so maintenance abuse was not a factor) and the slack variation was so bad if I adjusted for proper slack at a loose point, I couldn't even turn the wheel past a tight spot (adjusting for proper slack at the tight spot left me with sections where I could pull links clear of the teeth at the back of the rear sprocket). I replaced the front sprocket with another OEM 15 tooth one and got a new DID chain. I replaced the rear 45 tooth sprocket with a 44 tooth sprocket that was an OEM piece for the SV650S and that combination was still going strong with almost no adjustments needed when I sold the bike at 33,000 miles."
This is an excellent observation and does make sense in order to achieve maximu life from chain/sprocket set. I'm currently running a 15/45 on my Vstrom. I'm at 24k on the set and it appears to have another 8k of life left. I believe I've gotten good wear by keeping it adjusted on the loose side and keeping the chain lubed. There's dosen't appear to be any tight/loose spots.

Other variables: I don't do wheelies, drag race or pull a heavy load (I only weigh 160).

Indeed if a "combination where there are no common factors between the front/rear totals" helps achieve even wear is an important factor to achieve max drive train life, Suzuki in the case of the Vstrom is not interested. Stock OEM configuration is 15/47. This from a mfgr w/chain adjustmt specs a bit on the tight side.
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allonsye screwed with this post 01-26-2011 at 09:25 AM
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Old 01-28-2011, 08:48 AM   #79
Laconic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allonsye View Post
Suzuki in the case of the Vstrom is not interested. Stock OEM configuration is 15/47.

I'm confused, am I missing something? 47/15=3.1333333. Math is hard for me...
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Old 01-28-2011, 03:33 PM   #80
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 257bob View Post
I'm confused, am I missing something? 47/15=3.1333333. Math is hard for me...
No, you're correct. Here's a good tutorial:
http://www.motorcycleanchor.com/moto...ocketmath.html
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:34 AM   #81
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Thanks.

Actually, it was your comment about Suzuki not wanting to maximize chain life on the V-Strom that I didn't understand.
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:38 AM   #82
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 257bob View Post
Thanks.

Actually, it was your comment about Suzuki not wanting to maximize chain life on the V-Strom that I didn't understand.
Tongue and cheek
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Old 03-02-2011, 09:41 AM   #83
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PDoiler Installation and Evaluation

Install of the Brian Stokes PDoiler

As promised, I would post if I decided upon a chain auto-oiler. Well here it is.

I wanted an auto-oiler. Set it and forget it. Mission accomplished.

I've used my Weestrom for the most part for long-distance touring. It's proven to be an excellent comfortable and highly economical mount for that purpose. I've gotten excellent life out of my chain/sprocket sets by servicing w/Dupont Teflon lube but have wanted to lower my maintenance time yet increase life.

Further, I'm absolutely not interested in chain maintenance at the end of a 500 mi day, nor at the beginning of another. Call it what you like -- it is what it is. So, I researched auto-oilers ad nauseum. I wanted something simple, reliable (set it and forget it) and inexpensive. Most of them were very expensive and w/many moving parts. Others were very simple and gravity fed. I thought these too irreliable.

I finally settled on the PDoiler (Positive Displacement Oiler).

I bought it directly from the maker through his online ebay store. Interestingly enough, virtually all the oilers I found on the market came out of Europe and usually England. There was too the Chamelion chain oiler out of Quebec (basically a gravity unit w/an electronic valve), but I determined the PDoiler was a better value and is a positive feed (my preference) not gravity

http://cgi.ebay.com/Motorcycle-autom...#ht_692wt_1140

The price was $106 usd and arrived at my door in 2-weeks.



The instructions were clear and easy to follow.


The hardest part proved to be where best to mount the resevoir/dispenser.

I finally settled on the right just aft of the rear brake fluid reservoir behind the subframe fairing on the Weestrom



Controller - adjust to meter out oil between 30sec (#9), 130sec (#1) intervals


I didn't see any need to mount the controller near the handle bars. Once you determine what oil amount you want, it's basically set it and forget it. So, I decided to bundle it near my fuse accy box -- wired to a ignition switch controlled circuit per the instructions



It's important to mount the chain supply line in a way that it's least suseptible to swing arm movement. I ran the line down and to the front of the swing arm pivot then underneath the swing arm. Plenty of self-adhesive anchors are supplied to secure the oil line. Here it is partially installed


Next comes a very critical part of mounting the wick type end. It's critical because you don't want chain wip or the sprocket teeth yanking the line away. I mounted mine closer to the rear sprocket than Brain's recommendation thinking the closer to it the less likely the wick to be hit by chain wipping/slop and my other thought was that oil hitting the sprocket would be forced into the chain centrifically


Next came cutting the wick to the adequate clearance from the chain



The unit is self-priming but I primed the line so I could observe the performance straight away.

I was really suspect of this delivery system in particular that wind and what have you would splatter oil everywhere else and the chain. I've always thought that it would be better to deposit the oil onto the sprocket as some of the others I've seen. But, this simple delivery system is proving to work better than I expected in several hundred miles.

80wt gear lube is the prescribed lube but Mr Stokes says any lube oil will do in a pinch. The 75-90 I'm using is working very very well.

Here's post install views of the chain with the timer set to max 9. There's no oil slung all over the place or puddles on the ground after being parked. Just a moist wick and moist chain. I've dialed it back to 7 now that the chain has a good initial moistening. I figure in a few more miles I should be able to determine what is optimum




My only gripe so far is servicing. The unit hold 100cc and is serviced via a dip tube. I used a large syringe. The instructions expect you to use an oil can. I found servicing rather clumsey with the syringe particularly finding a fit to the blue servicing tube provided. Next I'll source a suitable prescribed oil can that will be easy to carry on those long trips. A full service is supposed to last up to 5k mi.

There's a "dip tube" cap affair that fits in the tube when in use. You remove that and insert this blue tube to service the unit.


In my opinion, this unit is an excellent value and works exactly as advertised. I highly recommend it to anyone looking for very efficient chain oiling system. I think this is a must have for any chain driven long-distance motorcycle. The vendor appears responsive to customer needs.
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Old 03-02-2011, 11:32 AM   #84
hpsVFR
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Thanks for the post and pics, Allonsye.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:13 PM   #85
WillyTheWimp
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Cheapest Most Effective Chain Lubricator

I use two different ones depending on where I am. At home I use this one
http://www.sallybeauty.com/color-app...l?cm_vc=SEARCH

Which is just a bottle like they use in a hair salon to do a hair color touch up, it costs about $2.

On the road I use this one,
http://www.tinactin.com/get-the-products.html

Scroll down to the bottom for the Tinactin Foot Powder bottle. It's got a super tiny hole and is leak proof so easy to carry around. Walmart used to have a generic in the same bottle but I haven't seen it recently.

What I put in the bottle is Automatic Transmission Fluid. I put some on the chain either every day or when I get gas which is about every day.

You can easily put a drop on each link of the chain, it never gets unknowingly bent so that the lube isn't falling on the chain. It doesn't take that long to do and it's super cheap.

I have to give credit to getting me started doing this to the Prof from www.f650.com. But after 130,000 miles and getting at least 20k out of each chain, unless they were broken by something going between the chain and one of the sprockets, I'm a happy camper.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:10 AM   #86
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyTheWimp View Post
I use two different ones depending on where I am. At home I use this one
http://www.sallybeauty.com/color-app...l?cm_vc=SEARCH

Which is just a bottle like they use in a hair salon to do a hair color touch up, it costs about $2.

On the road I use this one,
http://www.tinactin.com/get-the-products.html

Scroll down to the bottom for the Tinactin Foot Powder bottle. It's got a super tiny hole and is leak proof so easy to carry around. Walmart used to have a generic in the same bottle but I haven't seen it recently.

What I put in the bottle is Automatic Transmission Fluid. I put some on the chain either every day or when I get gas which is about every day.

You can easily put a drop on each link of the chain, it never gets unknowingly bent so that the lube isn't falling on the chain. It doesn't take that long to do and it's super cheap.

I have to give credit to getting me started doing this to the Prof from www.f650.com. But after 130,000 miles and getting at least 20k out of each chain, unless they were broken by something going between the chain and one of the sprockets, I'm a happy camper.
I like the idea of recycling a personal care product application bottle to carry lubricant on board and otherwise servicing my auto-chain oiler. Thanks for the tip Willy
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:44 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allonsye View Post
Yep, had a friend who learned this the hard way back in the day with his CB350. .........crinch...........
You've got to be one dumb mutha to do that to your hand.

Trying to clean the chain with a rag while the engine is driving the wheel..
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:32 AM   #88
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boon Booni View Post
You've got to be one dumb mutha to do that to your hand.
My momma always said "life's a self-cleaning oven".
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:44 AM   #89
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You should get a scottoiler. They have been doing it a loooong time, they do it the best and they are not expensive. They also pay for themselves within the life of one chain (which it will typically double or even triple). You can run them on used engine oil, without any negative consequences, despite what their marketing men and the internet mechanics may claim. I got 44K out of my OE SV chain using a Scottoiler 80% of the time, that was old engine oil. I know a lad who got 105K miles (take that shaft drive advocates) from his original ZX-6R chain using one run solely on old engine oil. Oh, did I mention their customer service is the best of any company I've had any dealings with and that all their parts are available separately, very cheaply?

They should come as factory fitment on everything with a chain other than race bikes, IMO.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:31 AM   #90
allonsye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
You should get a scottoiler. They have been doing it a loooong time, they do it the best and they are not expensive. They also pay for themselves within the life of one chain (which it will typically double or even triple). You can run them on used engine oil, without any negative consequences, despite what their marketing men and the internet mechanics may claim. I got 44K out of my OE SV chain using a Scottoiler 80% of the time, that was old engine oil. I know a lad who got 105K miles (take that shaft drive advocates) from his original ZX-6R chain using one run solely on old engine oil. Oh, did I mention their customer service is the best of any company I've had any dealings with and that all their parts are available separately, very cheaply?

They should come as factory fitment on everything with a chain other than race bikes, IMO.
Folks on your side of the pond have been using chain oilers for years. For some reason, the idea just hasn't taken here.
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