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Old 01-29-2015, 06:19 AM   #1
Krabill OP
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Clean or a 5?

I'd like some opinions on this.

Split card is stapled to a log on all four corners.

Rider rides over split card and tears out 3 of the staples.

Split card is now hanging upside-down and completely unreadable by the bottom right corner staple. It is still attached to the log, but is upside-down and unreadable.

Clean, or 5?
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:28 AM   #2
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Did the rider stop?




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Old 01-29-2015, 06:58 AM   #3
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We're just talking about the split card here.

Hanging upside-down and unreadable. Is it a 5?
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Old 01-29-2015, 06:58 AM   #4
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displaced marker, its a 5
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:13 AM   #5
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^^^^^Yes. If you have to reset it, it's a 5.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:25 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2whlrcr View Post
^^^^^Yes. If you have to reset it, it's a 5.
I agree with 2 whlrcr, sadly this can be an issue on some sections with one judge/scorer, they might not see the card get torn up or ridden over, from the "normal viewing spot" close to exit.. then the next rider to walk to arrive at section points it out.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:34 AM   #7
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Thanks.

That's how I interpret the rule as well. I was the TM and the card needed to be reset, so I gave the rider a 5. He was unhappy with my ruling and has said he will never ride another NEOTT event because he thinks we don't know the rules. In his mind, the card was still attached, so he was clean. The way I read the rules, since the card needed to be reset to be readable, it constitutes a 5.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:35 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
I agree with 2 whlrcr, sadly this can be an issue on some sections with one judge/scorer, they might not see the card get torn up or ridden over, from the "normal viewing spot" close to exit.. then the next rider to walk to arrive at section points it out.
I was the TM and I was standing in full view of the incident, so I made a ruling on the spot. The rider was not happy.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:39 AM   #9
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Now go back to the section and see if you can figure out how to re mark it to make it harder to ride over the marker while still forcing the same line.
Well laid out sections will minimize the need or opportunity to contact split markers.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:49 AM   #10
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Now go back to the section and see if you can figure out how to re mark it to make it harder to ride over the marker while still forcing the same line.
Well laid out sections will minimize the need or opportunity to contact split markers.
It was over 5' wide where the split marker was on that log to get over. He just wanted to get as close to the marker as he could.
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lamotovita View Post
Now go back to the section and see if you can figure out how to re mark it to make it harder to ride over the marker while still forcing the same line.
Well laid out sections will minimize the need or opportunity to contact split markers.

This is part of the reason it is getting imperative for clubs to standardize the rules... and try to follow marking guidelines. then the riders will get used to it. I know it isnt always popular, but now you can say, "sorry NATC rule, not mine" like I do at work, LOL! the rule stated last I knew anyhow, cannot disturb the marker, touching it was not allowed a year or 2 ago, now relaxed to if marker is moved/dislodged/damage and has to be reset to be in same condition for the next rider, it is a FAILURE...
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Old 01-29-2015, 07:55 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
Thanks.

That's how I interpret the rule as well. I was the TM and the card needed to be reset, so I gave the rider a 5. He was unhappy with my ruling and has said he will never ride another NEOTT event because he thinks we don't know the rules. In his mind, the card was still attached, so he was clean. The way I read the rules, since the card needed to be reset to be readable, it constitutes a 5.
Some years ago I was observing a section, that I didn't build, there was a Novice split card on a small rock at the apex of a turn. Most of the riders rode over the split marker and were not penalized for it. Eventually, of course, the marker came off the rock. That rider got a 5, he was a middle aged man that had been riding with our club for 2 or 3 years and clearly had no intention of advancing past the novice class, I thought he was going to start crying. His reasoning was that since he rode the same line as everyone else he shouldn't get a 5. I explained to him that that's not the way it works. He quit riding Trials soon after that event.
The situation could have been avoided had the section been better designed and marked.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:04 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Krabill View Post
I was the TM and I was standing in full view of the incident, so I made a ruling on the spot. The rider was not happy.
Last year at the CO national a TM (who just rode up) called a 5 on a buddy of mine when the actual observer had him on a clean. We tried to explain to him that the observer is the one who makes the call, not the TM. The observer is there all day and should be calling it consistently. IMO, the TM should stay out of it until a protest is noted on the card.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:04 AM   #14
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Just to clear up the section setting issue with this particular issue.

This was the Expert class. I gave them 5' to get over an elevated log. It wasn't a big log, and it wasn't very highly elevated. Not difficult at all, especially for an expert level rider. There was a left-hand turn right after the log, which increased the difficulty. If I would have given them any more room to get over the first log, it wouldn't have been "expert" level any more. There was plenty of room to get over the log and make the turn after. Every other rider in the expert class had no problems with it at all, and the rider in question is the most skilled out of all of them. He would have easily won the event, even with the 5 he earned on this section, if he wouldn't have quit after my ruling.

Failure definition from our NEOTT rulebook:

Any displacement of markers with the machine or rider, requiring that they be reset, i.e. breaking or knocking down.
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Old 01-29-2015, 08:07 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Gordy View Post
Last year at the CO national a TM (who just rode up) called a 5 on a buddy of mine when the actual observer had him on a clean. We tried to explain to him that the observer is the one who makes the call, not the TM. The observer is there all day and should be calling it consistently. IMO, the TM should stay out of it until a protest is noted on the card.
It was a small monthly event with no official judges. The riders ride in class groups and judge themselves. Every other rider in the afternoon class was there and called it a 5. The rider in question wanted to give himself a clean. I just happened to be standing there when it happened, so I was asked to make a ruling.
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