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Old 05-24-2010, 08:21 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajflyboy
Lemond is a straight shooter

What more can you ask for. Don't be Nieve. Lance more than likely has cheated. Just face the probable facts on this.

probable facts?



I hope you can someday appreciate how idiotic your statement is.

"probable facts"



... and it is naïve.
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:07 AM   #32
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There's a big difference between Lemond and Flandis. For all Lemonds faults, he achieved a tremendous victory without using drugs. Yes, he's become a bitter old man, but I can kinda relate.

Flandis is a cheat and a liar.

Not in the same league.

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Old 05-24-2010, 09:22 AM   #33
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Lemond (the first American to do so) won 3 TDF's and most likely would have won 5 if one wasn't robbed from him by his own team/mate, and the other from a hunting accident. So he's no slouch in my book.

And even after being put on the cover of SI was still almost unknown in his own country..... that would make me bitter.

With the amount of doping in pro cycling, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the anointed one (Lance) had partaken. I mean, how the hell could he have won 7 TDFs against what seems to be a field of doper super athletes without it...?

He was (is) huge for bicycling, and huge for the TDF/racing in general.... so if certain parties turned a blind eye there could be stranger fictions. Either way there seems to be no proof, and proof in these circumstances is difficult at best to confirm anyway.

Pro bicycling is infested with drug use, remember the US Olympic team (think in the 80s) had to give back most of their medals. It's part of the culture. I'd bet Floyd and Greg were a lot closer to it than any of us. So it's either bitter jealousy, envy and frustrations on their part, or part truths. Maybe it's a mixture of both, who knows.
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:38 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
With the amount of doping in pro cycling, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the anointed one (Lance) had partaken. I mean, how the hell could he have won 7 TDFs against what seems to be a field of doper super athletes without it...?

He was (is) huge for bicycling, and huge for the TDF/racing in general.... so if certain parties turned a blind eye there could be stranger fictions. Either way there seems to be no proof, and proof in these circumstances is difficult at best to confirm anyway.

Pro bicycling is infested with drug use, remember the US Olympic team (think in the 80s) had to give back most of their medals. It's part of the culture. I'd bet Floyd and Greg were a lot closer to it than any of us. So it's either bitter jealousy, envy and frustrations on their part, or part truths. Maybe it's a mixture of both, who knows.
Huge Lemond fan in the day here, lost some respect for him over time but so what? If authorities do turn a blind eye towards Lance, IMO, it is because he represents so much to cancer victims/survivors around the globe. If a few kids on the brink of succumbing to cancer believe in Lance, read his book, wear his yellow wrist band, and are about to survive, find out he is a cheating, lying, SOB who is full of shit, I would think it would greatly affect their situation.

So, doping: its for the children

BTW, I don't think those guys who blood doped in 84 had to give back their medals( at least not the guys I knew ) It was their own blood they used, and while the technique was frowned upon, slipped under the radar for medal loss.
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Old 05-24-2010, 09:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motonomus

So, doping: its for the children
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:24 AM   #36
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Meanwhile, back in Europe...

Sunday was one of the most difficult stages of the Giro d Italia. A 222km stage that finished with a climb of the Zoncolon, a 10.1km climb has an average gradient of 11.9%, with the maximum gradient reaching up to 22%. One of the commentators noted that you rarely see heroic blast-the-race-apart performances on these classic mountain stages anymore, and attributes that to clean racing. It came off to me as a wistful statement - ah, the good old days when a smacked out rider would go flying up a mountain until his very heart exploded.

Anyhow, I still follow pro cycling, but much as one would follow a Mexican soap opera. Colorful outfits, drama and intrigue, then tune in next week to see fallen heroes (Basso, Vinokourov) redeem themselves and noble characters come crashing down (soon to be Lance?)
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:58 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
Lemond (the first American to do so) won 3 TDF's and most likely would have won 5 if one wasn't robbed from him by his own team/mate, and the other from a hunting accident. So he's no slouch in my book.

And even after being put on the cover of SI was still almost unknown in his own country..... that would make me bitter.

With the amount of doping in pro cycling, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the anointed one (Lance) had partaken. I mean, how the hell could he have won 7 TDFs against what seems to be a field of doper super athletes without it...?

He was (is) huge for bicycling, and huge for the TDF/racing in general.... so if certain parties turned a blind eye there could be stranger fictions. Either way there seems to be no proof, and proof in these circumstances is difficult at best to confirm anyway.

Pro bicycling is infested with drug use, remember the US Olympic team (think in the 80s) had to give back most of their medals. It's part of the culture. I'd bet Floyd and Greg were a lot closer to it than any of us. So it's either bitter jealousy, envy and frustrations on their part, or part truths. Maybe it's a mixture of both, who knows.
Exactly ! Well put!

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Old 05-24-2010, 10:59 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motonomus
Huge Lemond fan in the day here, lost some respect for him over time but so what? If authorities do turn a blind eye towards Lance, IMO, it is because he represents so much to cancer victims/survivors around the globe. If a few kids on the brink of succumbing to cancer believe in Lance, read his book, wear his yellow wrist band, and are about to survive, find out he is a cheating, lying, SOB who is full of shit, I would think it would greatly affect their situation.

So, doping: its for the children

BTW, I don't think those guys who blood doped in 84 had to give back their medals( at least not the guys I knew ) It was their own blood they used, and while the technique was frowned upon, slipped under the radar for medal loss.

Agreed.

I thought I read somewhere that they were either banned from competing in another olympics or had their medals revoked, but I can't seem to find it. I'm pretty sure it became illegal (blood doping even w your own blood) prior to a race after that incident was exposed.

The rule of pro cycling should be: "Doping, only illegal if they catch you", or maybe this works better: "Doping, how can it be illegal if everyone's doing it?"
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack
Re: Lance.

Just makes me wonder if he's that egomaniacal, or when the steroid bubble will burst for him.

I don't think that there are any major accusations that Armstrong used steroids, but rather that he used EPO, which is a blood thickening agent, and used a technique called blood doping to hide his EPO usage.

As a legitimate cancer surviver Armstrong almost undoubtedly gets some dispensation for EPO, which is a treatment for side effects of chemotherapy.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:09 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motonomus

BTW, I don't think those guys who blood doped in 84 had to give back their medals( at least not the guys I knew ) It was their own blood they used, and while the technique was frowned upon, slipped under the radar for medal loss.

Blood doping was not banned during the 1984 Olympics. The riders admitted doing the technique, but then took offense when accusations began that the coaching staff added various things to the blood without them knowing.

The athletes weren't disciplined, but the coaching staff (lead by Eddie Borysewicz) were shown the door.

Guess where Eddie went next? A team called Montgomery Subaru, who had a new rider in his first pro year named ... Lance Armstrong.

(As an aside, an old friend of mine was a member of the coaching staff in those days. He still won't talk about what went on.)
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:14 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Off the grid

Lemond is just a fucking cum bubble

Lemond is an amazing athlete, and only slightly overshadowed in the USA because we have had some other amazing riders. During his day Lemond set performance records on the ergometers at Colorado Springs that were unseen before and the coaching staff said that they were 100% sure that he would be a champion.

Armstrong, in his amateur days, not so much.

Following the Tour de L'avenir the correspondent for International Cycle Sport said, flat out, that the next English speaking winner of the Tour de France would not be a Brit, it would be a young American named Greg Lemond.

And it was indeed.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:44 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dragoon
Proof flyboy proof

Landis' accusation is that they (Armstrong, Landis, and another rider whose name escapes me) were keeping blood in a refrigerator in an apartment in Spain that Armstrong leased. And that following EPO sessions (and in Landis' case presumably testosterone usage sessions) they were using the transfused blood to wash the EPO out of their systems as much as possible.
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:55 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zodiac
Lemond (the first American to do so) won 3 TDF's and most likely would have won 5 if one wasn't robbed from him by his own team/mate, and the other from a hunting accident. So he's no slouch in my book.

And even after being put on the cover of SI was still almost unknown in his own country..... that would make me bitter.

With the amount of doping in pro cycling, it wouldn't at all surprise me if the anointed one (Lance) had partaken. I mean, how the hell could he have won 7 TDFs against what seems to be a field of doper super athletes without it...?

He was (is) huge for bicycling, and huge for the TDF/racing in general.... so if certain parties turned a blind eye there could be stranger fictions. Either way there seems to be no proof, and proof in these circumstances is difficult at best to confirm anyway.

Pro Sport is infested with drug use, remember the US Olympic team (think in the 80s) had to give back most of their medals. It's part of the culture. I'd bet Floyd and Greg were a lot closer to it than any of us. So it's either bitter jealousy, envy and frustrations on their part, or part truths. Maybe it's a mixture of both, who knows.
I think Bicycling may be a wee bit more, but I think they are also tested more. For example, Pro Baseball/ NFL... no where near the scrutiny that Bicycling receives.

As for Armstrong, I am a doubter--- People like to make the argument about how hard he trains and his unique phsysiology... I am sure he trains freaking hard, and his physiology makes him really good. But, I am sure most top echelon riders train really really hard and have physiologies suited for endurance racing. To succeed so dramatically again again and again in a sport that the upper echelons are dominated by Cheaters, and to have ties to famous doping Doctors, ties to multiple teammates who dope...

Just seems to me, that there is much haze in the air. Maybe it is Fog, and the afternoon will be beautiful and good. But, maybe a big Fire is burning behind those hills.

Jurgen
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Old 05-24-2010, 11:59 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by PirateJohn
Blood doping was not banned during the 1984 Olympics. The riders admitted doing the technique, but then took offense when accusations began that the coaching staff added various things to the blood without them knowing.
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Jurgen

Yup. And in and of itself I don't see blood doping as being particularly dangerous or against the spirit of the sport ... but I can certainly see why the athletes would be concerned if they were told that the team physician was injecting their blood with undisclosed "vitamins" before an event.

As Jacques Anquetil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Anquetil) once said, you can't win races on mineral water alone.

Great Anquetil quotes: "He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding:
“ "Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope."[28] ”

He won Liège-Bastogne-Liège in 1966. An official named Collard told him once he had got changed that there would be a drugs test. "Too late", Anquetil said. "If you can collect it from the soapy water there, go ahead. I'm a human being, not a fountain." Collard said he would return half an hour later; Anquetil said he would already have left for a dinner appointment 140 km away. Two days later the Belgian cycling federation disqualified Anquetil and fined him. Anquetil responded by calling urine tests "a threat to individual liberty" and engaged a lawyer. The case was never heard, the Belgians backed down and Anquetil became the winner.

Anquetil recounted an incident in a hotel at La Rochelle where he and others were relaxing after a criterium:
I think it was [Roger] Hassenforder's idea.. We started looking at the fish in a lovely little tank at the entrance to the restaurant. Hassen suddenly said: 'Let's give them something to liven them up a bit!' He got out of his pocket a few Maxitons and gave them to me... I threw them to the fish. And oh yes, amphetamines work just as well on fish, I can tell you. After 10 minutes they were thrashing from one end of the tank to the other.

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