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Old 02-01-2012, 02:49 PM   #121
Ze_zaskar
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Bravo jribeiro

Grande comparativo, muito objectivo e baseado em experiência real. Tem fotos?
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Old 02-02-2012, 07:24 PM   #122
olie
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Originally Posted by Ze_zaskar View Post
Bravo jribeiro

Grande comparativo, muito objectivo e baseado em experiência real. Tem fotos?
mais um para o paulista !!!
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:51 AM   #123
Ze_zaskar
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Lusophones are taking over AdvRider
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:55 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Ze_zaskar View Post
Lusophones are taking over AdvRider
We once ruled the world ( long, long time ago )
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Old 02-03-2012, 07:51 AM   #125
Ceri JC
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Originally Posted by OldDog View Post
Actually i don't doubt that the BMW comes out on top in that test. As said they've had a while to get the GS thing sorted out, and well lets face it, when you say "BMW" everyone immediatly thinks "reliability"
I don't; the principle attraction of the new Worldcrosser (standard S10 not dirt-oriented enough for my liking) for me is Japanese reliability. To me, it means (relatively) cheap services, spare parts and things taking longer to wear out. Ideally I want them to make an F8GS equivalent, but I'd pick the Worldcrosser over a GSA, even given the relative untested nature of the former.
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Old 02-03-2012, 11:34 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Ceri JC View Post
I don't; the principle attraction of the new Worldcrosser (standard S10 not dirt-oriented enough for my liking) for me is Japanese reliability. To me, it means (relatively) cheap services, spare parts and things taking longer to wear out. Ideally I want them to make an F8GS equivalent, but I'd pick the Worldcrosser over a GSA, even given the relative untested nature of the former.
Yeah, nothing improves a bike more for dirt than some stickers and a shit bash plate.
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Old 02-03-2012, 12:58 PM   #127
GrahamD
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Originally Posted by pluric View Post
Yeah, nothing improves a bikes sales figures than some stickers and a shit bash plate.
Fixed..

Really for the price difference in Australia, I could grab that whole kit, dump an ECU in the thing, full zorst mods, do the suspension with a more adjustable rear, custom front, gold plate the spokes, grab a rideonADV custom bash plate and an electric winch and still have money left over.

Not even the mighty BMW badge would overcome all that at the local coffee house.

But for real dirt riding and hanging out at camp sites, I'd be picking the add on bits myself.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:50 PM   #128
stromsavard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jribeiro View Post
As an owner of both bikes ( 2009 GSA with 28000 km and a 2011 S10 with 3000 km ) and after following this thread for some time I decided to make a practical comparison between them.
I have more than 230.000 miles riding experience, most of it on GS/GSA bikes, mostly on long distance journeys through South America, Asia and Africa.
As a basic point I do not consider both bikes capable of any off road real travel. I usually use the off tarmac term when riding in gravel, dirt and sand roads.2222

The test

With my son I took both bikes from Sao Paulo, Brasil ( where we live ) to San Pedro de Atacama in Chile and back.In order to test the bikes in all conditions we switched bikes every 200 miles.

This is a 7000 KM journey, 80 % on tarmac and the rest on gravel, dirt and light sand roads. We faced temperatures between 40 and -2 degrees Celsius (104 28 F ) and altitudes from sea level up to 5000 meters ( 17000 feet ) when crossing one of the Andes passes.

Both bikes had the same tires ( Tourance for tarmac and Karoo T for off tarmac ), new brake pads, oil and filters. The GS has all the options ( ABS, ESA, ESC etc ) and the S10 the standard package that includes ABS, traction control and engine mode.

Both bikes has 38 liter Zega Pro panniers and assorted protection gear from Touratech. The S10 carried also a 3 gallon Rotopak fuel tank that I never used. Each bike was loaded with around 36 kilos of luggage.

Some numbers

Total mileage: 6998 km/4375 miles

GSA Fuel Consumption: 388 liters ( 18 km/liter- 42 mpg )
S10 Consumption: 368 liters ( 19,5 km/ liter -44 mpg )
( the overall mileage is low due to very steep and twisty roads to cross the Andes pass and the low speed/third gear all day ride through sandy roads in the Atacama desert. Both bikes are capable of 47/50 mpg runs on tarmac)

GSA Oil Consumption : 3 liters
S10 Oil Consumption: 0,5 liters

S10 Water Consumption: none

Overall Impressions

Steering

Although both bikes has basically the same weight, the S10 feels lighter on low speed maneuvers and heavier on medium to high speed turns. Although heavier, the steering seems to be more precise than the GSA, specially on bumpy tarmac roads.

Braking

The S10 brakes are in another league. I always believed that ABS was only usefull in the tarmac and it really annoyed me that the S10 had no “regular” way to switch off the ABS. During this trip I never switched off the ABS and its intervention is so seamless that you hardly notice it working. If there is an aspect where the S10 shines over the GSA is in the braking- traction control aspect. You must adapt your riding to this braking system, in order to use the interlinked braking system to its best. It took me two days dirt riding to really get used to it. The GSA brakes are also very good but IMHO Yamaha system is much better.

Traction Control

Also here the Yamaha system is better. After a few days, used it almost the time on mode 2 except on very twisty tarmac sections , full of diesel spills from the trucks. Different from the GSA system most of the time you only know the system is working because of the light. You feel nothing on the engine noise or riding attitude. I never switched it off. Both ABS and traction control worked perfectly on the Karoo tire in both bikes.

Driving Mode

The S10 has the driving mode switch. I leave it in the S mode. You can achieve the same effect with wrist control.

Ergonomics

Aside the original seat, the GSA offers a better ergonomic position for the rider. Wind protection, controls positioning are better than the S10’s. The original seat of the |Yamaha is better that the GSA. All the electronic adjustment of the GSA ca\n be made from the left handlebar, while the S10 has the engine mode on the right handlebar and the rest directly on the front panel. I find the GSA more comfortable on rides above 600 km / day.

Front Suspension

On the tarmac I prefer the GSA system specially because of the lack of diving under braking. Off tarmac the S10 is more compliant to the road and specially better on sandy roads.

The S10 suspension is more adjustable ( although not at the flick of button ) but I usually leave it at the same setting all the time, ie preload at 3 and compression and rebound at 4 clicks

Rear Suspension

My impression is that both are at the same level ( considering the standard shocks ) Again the S10 suspension is more adjustable ( although not at the flick of button ) but I usually leave it at the same setting all the time, ie preload at 3 and rebound at 6 clicks
/





Rear drive

Both work well, but on a previous GS I had a drive failure at 15.000 miles. I think that the double swingarm in the S10 is more reliable on the long run. To soon to say anything.

Engine

From the technical point of view the S10 engine is much more advanced than the boxer. The side radiator works well.My trusted mechanic says that the S10 engine is awfully limited, meaning that it could deliver easily 130-140 hp only dealing with the ecu and fuel injectors, specially if running on ethanol. It has an annoying “gap” around 3500 rpm, but it seems something related to the injection map and could easily be fixed with Power Commander.

It takes bad gasoline ( low octane ) with no problems. This bad batch we got was exactly when crossing the high altitude pass ( 17.000 feet Paso de Jama ) and although you could feel the power loss there was no knocking at all. The GSA boxer engine complained a lot ( pinging) and was really running very hot.It looks like the ECU+ knocking sensor could not deal with high altitude and bad gas at the same time.

By the other way the boxer engine is the “ character “ of the GSA. It is reliable and it is for ever linked to the GS brand. I just love this engine, so my analysis is biased here.

Rear Frame

To soon to say anything about the S10 rear frame sturdiness. The GSA with heavy panniers usually cracks when riding off tarmac..

Price

At least here in Brazil, the GSA costs US$ 50.000,00 and the S10 costs US$ 34.000,00

Service

Number of BMW service centers between Sao Paulo and San Pedro de Atacama= 0

Number of Yamaha service centers between Sao Paulo and San Pedro de Atacama= 30+

Parts Cost

GSA rear shock in Brazil= US$ 2.857,00 ESA
S10 rear shock in Brazil= US$ 975,00


Labor Cost

BMW labor cost per hour: US$ 100,00
Yamaha labor cost per hour: US$ 50,00

All things considered I consider the S10 a better bike to long distance travel. Character by character the GSA is unbeatable. I will keep both, but from now on will travel with the S10.
Wow!! what a great conclusion, very interesting and very good explanation...I will sleep well tonight!! Thank you!!
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:55 PM   #129
speed_racer
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50k for a GSA?
I thought in australia we were getting ripped at $30k..
arent they only like $15 or 16k in america?

The super tenere is $20k here.. so 10k difference between the two, the cost savings vs the bikes usability I don't see the added benefit anywhere in the extra 10k..
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:02 AM   #130
omeoxlv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jribeiro View Post
As an owner of both bikes ( 2009 GSA with 28000 km and a 2011 S10 with 3000 km ) and after following this thread for some time I decided to make a practical comparison between them.
I have more than 230.000 miles riding experience, most of it on GS/GSA bikes, mostly on long distance journeys through South America, Asia and Africa.
As a basic point I do not consider both bikes capable of any off road real travel. I usually use the off tarmac term when riding in gravel, dirt and sand roads.2222

The test

With my son I took both bikes from Sao Paulo, Brasil ( where we live ) to San Pedro de Atacama in Chile and back.In order to test the bikes in all conditions we switched bikes every 200 miles.

This is a 7000 KM journey, 80 % on tarmac and the rest on gravel, dirt and light sand roads. We faced temperatures between 40 and -2 degrees Celsius (104 28 F ) and altitudes from sea level up to 5000 meters ( 17000 feet ) when crossing one of the Andes passes.

Both bikes had the same tires ( Tourance for tarmac and Karoo T for off tarmac ), new brake pads, oil and filters. The GS has all the options ( ABS, ESA, ESC etc ) and the S10 the standard package that includes ABS, traction control and engine mode.

Both bikes has 38 liter Zega Pro panniers and assorted protection gear from Touratech. The S10 carried also a 3 gallon Rotopak fuel tank that I never used. Each bike was loaded with around 36 kilos of luggage.

Some numbers

Total mileage: 6998 km/4375 miles

GSA Fuel Consumption: 388 liters ( 18 km/liter- 42 mpg )
S10 Consumption: 368 liters ( 19,5 km/ liter -44 mpg )
( the overall mileage is low due to very steep and twisty roads to cross the Andes pass and the low speed/third gear all day ride through sandy roads in the Atacama desert. Both bikes are capable of 47/50 mpg runs on tarmac)

GSA Oil Consumption : 3 liters
S10 Oil Consumption: 0,5 liters

S10 Water Consumption: none

Overall Impressions

Steering

Although both bikes has basically the same weight, the S10 feels lighter on low speed maneuvers and heavier on medium to high speed turns. Although heavier, the steering seems to be more precise than the GSA, specially on bumpy tarmac roads.

Braking

The S10 brakes are in another league. I always believed that ABS was only usefull in the tarmac and it really annoyed me that the S10 had no “regular” way to switch off the ABS. During this trip I never switched off the ABS and its intervention is so seamless that you hardly notice it working. If there is an aspect where the S10 shines over the GSA is in the braking- traction control aspect. You must adapt your riding to this braking system, in order to use the interlinked braking system to its best. It took me two days dirt riding to really get used to it. The GSA brakes are also very good but IMHO Yamaha system is much better.

Traction Control

Also here the Yamaha system is better. After a few days, used it almost the time on mode 2 except on very twisty tarmac sections , full of diesel spills from the trucks. Different from the GSA system most of the time you only know the system is working because of the light. You feel nothing on the engine noise or riding attitude. I never switched it off. Both ABS and traction control worked perfectly on the Karoo tire in both bikes.

Driving Mode

The S10 has the driving mode switch. I leave it in the S mode. You can achieve the same effect with wrist control.

Ergonomics

Aside the original seat, the GSA offers a better ergonomic position for the rider. Wind protection, controls positioning are better than the S10’s. The original seat of the |Yamaha is better that the GSA. All the electronic adjustment of the GSA ca\n be made from the left handlebar, while the S10 has the engine mode on the right handlebar and the rest directly on the front panel. I find the GSA more comfortable on rides above 600 km / day.

Front Suspension

On the tarmac I prefer the GSA system specially because of the lack of diving under braking. Off tarmac the S10 is more compliant to the road and specially better on sandy roads.

The S10 suspension is more adjustable ( although not at the flick of button ) but I usually leave it at the same setting all the time, ie preload at 3 and compression and rebound at 4 clicks

Rear Suspension

My impression is that both are at the same level ( considering the standard shocks ) Again the S10 suspension is more adjustable ( although not at the flick of button ) but I usually leave it at the same setting all the time, ie preload at 3 and rebound at 6 clicks
/





Rear drive

Both work well, but on a previous GS I had a drive failure at 15.000 miles. I think that the double swingarm in the S10 is more reliable on the long run. To soon to say anything.

Engine

From the technical point of view the S10 engine is much more advanced than the boxer. The side radiator works well.My trusted mechanic says that the S10 engine is awfully limited, meaning that it could deliver easily 130-140 hp only dealing with the ecu and fuel injectors, specially if running on ethanol. It has an annoying “gap” around 3500 rpm, but it seems something related to the injection map and could easily be fixed with Power Commander.

It takes bad gasoline ( low octane ) with no problems. This bad batch we got was exactly when crossing the high altitude pass ( 17.000 feet Paso de Jama ) and although you could feel the power loss there was no knocking at all. The GSA boxer engine complained a lot ( pinging) and was really running very hot.It looks like the ECU+ knocking sensor could not deal with high altitude and bad gas at the same time.

By the other way the boxer engine is the “ character “ of the GSA. It is reliable and it is for ever linked to the GS brand. I just love this engine, so my analysis is biased here.

Rear Frame

To soon to say anything about the S10 rear frame sturdiness. The GSA with heavy panniers usually cracks when riding off tarmac..

Price

At least here in Brazil, the GSA costs US$ 50.000,00 and the S10 costs US$ 34.000,00

Service

Number of BMW service centers between Sao Paulo and San Pedro de Atacama= 0

Number of Yamaha service centers between Sao Paulo and San Pedro de Atacama= 30+

Parts Cost

GSA rear shock in Brazil= US$ 2.857,00 ESA
S10 rear shock in Brazil= US$ 975,00


Labor Cost

BMW labor cost per hour: US$ 100,00
Yamaha labor cost per hour: US$ 50,00

All things considered I consider the S10 a better bike to long distance travel. Character by character the GSA is unbeatable. I will keep both, but from now on will travel with the S10.
The editor of Australian Road Rider should have a look at this. I only buy the mag when desperate for something to read but the latest came packaged with the bonus extra copy of older editions (as some do). April 2011 and a comparo of adventure bikes. It was so interesting to observe the determination to make the S10 sound bad while lauding the "king" BMW. Read it if you come across one-----
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:11 AM   #131
Ze_zaskar
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Australian Road Rider

Anything else?
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:20 PM   #132
Flightar
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Yamaha Super Tenere vs BMW 1200GS: The Verdict t

I don't own either bike but when I buy my next one it'll be an adventure bike. I did demo a V Strom 1000 and an S10 at Daytona this year and the S10 was a great bike in the 20 minutes I rode it.

I have ridden a GS before but it was an 1150 so I don't know how that compares with the 1200. Since it was so long ago I can't offer much in the way of a comparison. I did really like the S10 though...the Suzuki however, I'd never consider owning, didn't like it at all.

The one thing I don't like about the S10 is the fact it looks funny to me...the GS is much better looking IMHO.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:22 AM   #133
hayfarmer
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Your right Omeo. I cancelled my subscription to Road Rider mag when I read that biased comparo.

The advertising budget always wins out
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:15 PM   #134
the Pheasant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blakduk View Post
Anyone ridden both and want to post up their thoughts?
Camhead GS, GSA and two S10s, the second both with and as pillion over a shared 450 mile day. Neither ridden off-road though. A few thoughts...

All fine machines although I personally would not buy the GSA 'cos its tank is too bulky for my liking. I like the feel of the boxer motor despite its uneven torque curve. Initially I didn't much like the S10 motor, finding it lumpy in power delivery at lower revs. With a few more miles I came around to the view that the S10 mill is superb; the sensation of power pulses suggests vibration but there is next to none. Ally this to serious bottom end punch and a linear torque curve and it gets my vote.

S10 riding position is excellent, especially standing. Ergos are typically proficient Japanese.

As mentioned by jribiero, the S10 has a double-sided swingarm. In this it is unique amongst its shaft-drive peers. This surely has to be the most durable arrangement, especially as the S10 does not have an extra pivot in the swingarm to minimise suspension effects from the shaft (seems it does not need one...)

Does the S10 survive drops as well as the GS? Don't know but reports here seem to suggest it is robust, if not as much so as the boxer given its water cooling apparatus and fairing panels.

But in any case, the S10 has one major advantage over the BM, Honda Crosstourer and Triumph Tiger Explorer; it doesn't have a beak.
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:47 PM   #135
GrahamD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the Pheasant View Post

But in any case, the S10 has one major advantage over the BM, Honda Crosstourer and Triumph Tiger Explorer; it doesn't have a beak.
Yeah it was a major part pf my decision

My theory is that real adventure bikes don't need beaks.to prove anything.
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