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Old 04-19-2013, 07:40 PM   #16711
eram310
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Cug,
Thanks for the report. We are about the same weight and I feel I can improve my roadie in the same way you did. I am just going to wait for another year or two for the fork oil and the shock oil to break. (and have the heart to spend this kind of cash) ,I think the Tiger is a great street bike, and very comfortable compared with my SV650 (with aftermarket suspension) but i have to move more on the seat in order not to scrape and be careful with hard braking because of excessive fork dive.
I too, rode last year in my normal way with zip ties on the front fork and was surprised to see how much suspension I have used. (Almost all)
Keep the information coming.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
Note that I have a Roadie, therefore no adjustment other than preload at the rear. The spring rate wasn't right for me weight, although with standard pre-load adjustment kind of okay, the sag was halfway correct, the damping okay but harsh and I think it does contribute to the slightly bouncy ride on uneven ground (same as the front but that is sorted already).

Also interesting is that it seems that there were several adjustments made to the Roadie suspension over the lifetime (or the production tolerances are outrageous - a thought I wouldn't discount on that cheap suspension setup the Roadie has). I've ridden a stock Roadie that was much more compliant and much less bouncy than mine.

The XC is completely different in that regard*(front and rear). After riding the Roadie, I didn't want the XC at all, way too soft for my riding, wobbly and bouncy. A total rocking horse ... But I have to admit, a very comfortable one.



Front has Traxxion AK-20 fully adjustable cartridges. I got these last summer and I'm very happy with them. The ride feels slightly tighter but still much more compliant. Spring rate for my weight, damping is pretty much perfect.

I had issues with the bike being bouncy which I attributed to the forks having a bad spring rate, too compression, and not enough rebound damping. Even for my light weight (70kg/155lbs before gear), I got a much stiffer spring, but also much more compliant and better set up damping.

This solved:

- brake dive, there is enough left to do typical corner entrance compression for sharper handling, but not more

- bottoming out, I didn hit the limit in the front a few times with my normal riding, but there wasn't much left even just going on a day trip on mountain roads here, I used probably 85 to 90% of the travel with normal, non-aggressive riding, now I'm using about 70% with the same style riding and have never pushed it all the way day down

- lean angle limits, due to the too soft springs I was compressing them too much in fast, high lean angle corners, which made me touch down foot pegs and other parts quite easily, together with a 15mm raise in the rear and the correct spring rate, that is much better now

- comfort issues, the ride is much more compliant now, compression is less harsh, rebound is a bit stronger, meaning that the bike doesn't bounce itself up

- bouncing, see comfort

What it did on the other hand was making the shortcomings of the rear suspension bloody obvious. Same issue there: spring rate off, too much compression, not enough rebound. On the XC this can be at least halfway corrected by adjusting the rebound properly, on the Roadie that isn't an option.



I know, I have ridden a Roadie with exactly the setup I have now (AK-20 front, Öhlins rear) from a rider with exactly my weight. It was a pretty much perfect ride for my taste: tight, sporty, compliant, comfortable, you plain never ever thought about the suspension, it just works.

That's why I ordered mine this way. I'll install the shock this weekend and will likely go for a day ride in the mountains. I'll report back ...



It doesn't look too hard. What do you mean by "just flipped it around"?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:02 PM   #16712
eram310
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Tiger,
I have put racetech emulator on my SV and changed the fork oil a few times.
You measure from the top of the fork when the fork is fully collapsed with the springs out and the damping cartridge in (in my case was cartridge emulators)

BTW, more oil or higher viscosity oil will create more damping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
Y

For my future reference.........Does anyone know, for sure, what has to taken out before the level is set? i.e. just the spring or spring and damping cartridge????
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:05 PM   #16713
cug
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Öhlins Rear Shock

Okay, here we go:

Old vs. New:



Installed, side view of remote reservoir and preload adjuster:



I did only a very short test ride on the local highway, which is really, really badly done - a concrete highway that tends toward washboard (for those who know it: CA85 between 101 and 280, and CA280 between 85 and Wolfe Rd).

So far I'm happy with the results. The bouncing is more or less completely gone, of course, the bad concrete on 280 still results in up and down, but it's more controlled now and it doesn't bounce around on the local streets anymore. So far so good. Sharp bumps seem to get filtered really well, slightly better even than from the forks, although I haven't played with the settings yet.

I will either spend some time myself figuring out the correct settings or go to my local suspension guru for a full setup. Might be worth the $20 to get a well sorted out base line and only adjust to my liking from there.

Pre-load: I checked with me on the bike, I get 50mm sag measured between frame and rear axle. This is with no pre-load at all. There is some adjustment possible in the shock itself, to get to the optimum of about 60mm, but so far so good - I measure without riding jacket, helmet, boots, and so on, so it might be already "just right" when I add all this. I haven't tried putting in more pre-load, this will happen tomorrow, just to see how the pre-load range works out.

Damping: So far I haven't played at all with the damping settings, it was already dark when I was done with the installation and I only wanted to get a first impression.

Installation: Installation was fairly easy. I took of the shifter assembly and sprocket cover, loosened the lower and upper bolts, removed the lowers, removed the upper, pulled out the OEM shock. That was done in about 20 minutes or so. Getting the Öhlins in was also fairly easy, although a little bit tight to get the remote parts through between engine and frame. My wife helped with that, I was holding the shock from below, she fiddled the reservoir and pre-load adjuster through, then I get the upper mounting bolt in to fix it in place. Took my time to install the reservoirs properly, played around a bit with how to twist and turn them, looked at the photos above, twisted and turned some more, finally found a position I liked and tightened the clamps and put the pre-load adjuster. Put the two lower bolts back in, tightened the lower and upper "handwarm", got the bike off the center stand to settle everything, put slightly more torque on the bolts, back on center stand, torque lower bolts to 80NM, off center stand, torque upper bolt to 48NM, re-install shift assembly (with the new Touratech folding shift lever I got from Germany), check all nuts and bolts one more time.

Overall install time was about two hours. Could easily be done in one if you know what you're doing and get a second pair of hands when needed without a delay.
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Old 04-20-2013, 10:40 AM   #16714
blacktiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
The change in suspension characteristics in this instance has less to do with the replacement of the oil, but rather with the dropping the fork oil level (and thus increasing the fork air capacity.)

Air is compressible, oil not so. The more air, and less oil, in the fork, the softer its action becomes.
I actually disagree with this. The XC forks are harsh in their initial compression so that indicates to me that the damping is too stiff. If it were the air gap it would get stiffer further into its stroke as the air compressed.
The cure is to reduce the viscosity of the oil so that it gets through the little holes in the damping cartridge easier. With that happening you don't want too strong a spring otherwise the forks will kick out too quickly, hence increase the air gap so that the air in there doesn't compress as much for a given amount of fork dive.



Quote:
Originally Posted by browneye View Post
With a larger air gap I would suspect a pogo affect as well.

The forks bottom easy enough on a deep rut offroad, sure wouldn't want them any softer. In fact, may even add a few cc's of oil to them to help with bottoming. Did this with the marzzochi's on the husky and it made a world of difference.

What exactly is the problem with the XC forks anyway? They're plenty firm, very little dive, no corner wallowing. I find them to be just fine, even a little firm for road but that's okay. But then I'm old and slow.
Your thinking is back to front. Larger air gap means more air which will increase in pressure LESS quickly for a given fork movement. You'll get the pogo effect with a smaller air gap.

For me (everyone has their own ideas of a perfect fork feel) the forks are too harsh and uncomfortable on the road. So I've made them softer in their action.



Quote:
Originally Posted by eram310 View Post
Tiger,
BTW, more oil or higher viscosity oil will create more damping.
You got the first bit wrong. Damping is governed purely by the oil trying to get through the little holes in the damping cartridge. The amount of oil has no effect on the damping.
In a closed system like in the fork leg with the top cap done up, the air on top of the oil compresses as the forks dive or hit a bump and the build up in pressure assists the steel spring. So the smaller the air gap, the quicker the air compresses.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:25 AM   #16715
eram310
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I always read that the aim is for sag of 1/3 of full travel. Spec on the Tiger 800 is 170mm for the rear. 170/3 = 56.66. I think you are closer than you think.

Great pictures.
Thanks,


Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
Okay, here we go:


Pre-load: I checked with me on the bike, I get 50mm sag measured between frame and rear axle. This is with no pre-load at all. There is some adjustment possible in the shock itself, to get to the optimum of about 60mm, but so far so good - I measure without riding jacket, helmet, boots, and so on, so it might be already "just right" when I add all this. I haven't tried putting in more pre-load, this will happen tomorrow, just to see how the pre-load range works out.


a delay.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:52 AM   #16716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eram310 View Post
I always read that the aim is for sag of 1/3 of full travel. Spec on the Tiger 800 is 170mm for the rear. 170/3 = 56.66. I think you are closer than you think.
Yes, that's why I wanted to get to ~60mm, it's closer to 1/3 than 50mm ...

In the end it doesn't matter too much, as I was still about 10kg short of my normal weight on the bike (heavier pants, jacket, helmet, boots, ...). Therefore I'm very likely exactly at the right sag. I will measure again when I go for a ride tomorrow. Today is hiking day ...

I was hoping to use a tiny little bit of pre-load to get to this sag so that no pre-load at all would be right for my wife (10kg less) as we are both riding the Tiger. But it's okay as it is 90% me anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eram310 View Post
Great pictures.
Thanks! I'll have some more after the longer test ride.
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Old 04-21-2013, 05:14 PM   #16717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eram310 View Post
.... very comfortable compared with my SV650 (with aftermarket suspension) but i have to move more on the seat in order not to scrape ....,
The Roadie's ground clearance is one of the lowest I've ever had (a Harley included)... consider suspension risers (shorter dog bones) for the rear - it has mostly solved my scraping issues.
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Old 04-22-2013, 02:39 AM   #16718
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I'm kinda surprised by the numbers who say they have issues with various bits scraping on the 800. The only thing I can think of is that there is too little rear preload. I have mine at 15 clicks out and never an issue, and the tyres are used right to the shoulder.

Could preload, or lack of, be the problem?
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:01 AM   #16719
blacktiger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KildareMan View Post
I'm kinda surprised by the numbers who say they have issues with various bits scraping on the 800. The only thing I can think of is that there is too little rear preload. I have mine at 15 clicks out and never an issue, and the tyres are used right to the shoulder.

Could preload, or lack of, be the problem?
Since *BMW found through research that 95% of riders haven't a clue how to set their suspension*, the answer is probably yes.

* the reason they developed their ESA suspension system.


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Old 04-22-2013, 08:04 AM   #16720
cug
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The answer in my case is "no, it has nothing to do with preload". But it has a lot to do with the suspension being compressed through a bump or speed and the available lean angle being very small.

I have no idea how you guys ride your bikes (probably on better roads) but I have no trouble scraping pegs on the standard Roadie or the XC. Never had that issue when I was alone on one of my Beemers.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:09 AM   #16721
browneye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
I have no idea how you guys ride your bikes (probably on better roads) but I have no trouble scraping pegs on the standard Roadie or the XC. Never had that issue when I was alone on one of my Beemers.
Has to be the tiger motor.
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Old 04-22-2013, 08:24 AM   #16722
PVRnick
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Need stiffer springs ?
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:17 AM   #16723
cug
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Has to be the tiger motor.
Actually, you're pretty close I guess. The engine is very wide at the lower parts. Also the foot pegs are super long compared to the ones on the beemers. They stick out much further because they have to because the bike itself is not narrow.

There are few things contributing to the fact that these bikes touch down very easily.
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Old 04-22-2013, 09:21 AM   #16724
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Need stiffer springs ?
Not really. I'm very light. And I think Snapper isn't heavy either. It has to do with limited lean angle (if I recall the calculation I made correctly, it's about 36 degrees or so), which is driven by long, low mounted foot pegs, with a wide engine, plus a suspension that isn't really all too well thought out.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:37 PM   #16725
wspllrll
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Tiger 800 XC wheel nut size

What are the Sizes of the front and rear nut sizes?


27 MM rear and 18 MM front?
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