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Old 04-18-2013, 08:59 AM   #16756
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Do you know what weight the stock fork oil is?
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:07 AM   #16757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatirdr View Post
Cug- I'm curious on what prompted this?
Note that I have a Roadie, therefore no adjustment other than preload at the rear. The spring rate wasn't right for me weight, although with standard pre-load adjustment kind of okay, the sag was halfway correct, the damping okay but harsh and I think it does contribute to the slightly bouncy ride on uneven ground (same as the front but that is sorted already).

Also interesting is that it seems that there were several adjustments made to the Roadie suspension over the lifetime (or the production tolerances are outrageous - a thought I wouldn't discount on that cheap suspension setup the Roadie has). I've ridden a stock Roadie that was much more compliant and much less bouncy than mine.

The XC is completely different in that regard*(front and rear). After riding the Roadie, I didn't want the XC at all, way too soft for my riding, wobbly and bouncy. A total rocking horse ... But I have to admit, a very comfortable one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Couch_ninja View Post
I'm also eagerly awaiting your review. How much was it? Have you done anything to the front forks?
Front has Traxxion AK-20 fully adjustable cartridges. I got these last summer and I'm very happy with them. The ride feels slightly tighter but still much more compliant. Spring rate for my weight, damping is pretty much perfect.

I had issues with the bike being bouncy which I attributed to the forks having a bad spring rate, too compression, and not enough rebound damping. Even for my light weight (70kg/155lbs before gear), I got a much stiffer spring, but also much more compliant and better set up damping.

This solved:

- brake dive, there is enough left to do typical corner entrance compression for sharper handling, but not more

- bottoming out, I didn hit the limit in the front a few times with my normal riding, but there wasn't much left even just going on a day trip on mountain roads here, I used probably 85 to 90% of the travel with normal, non-aggressive riding, now I'm using about 70% with the same style riding and have never pushed it all the way day down

- lean angle limits, due to the too soft springs I was compressing them too much in fast, high lean angle corners, which made me touch down foot pegs and other parts quite easily, together with a 15mm raise in the rear and the correct spring rate, that is much better now

- comfort issues, the ride is much more compliant now, compression is less harsh, rebound is a bit stronger, meaning that the bike doesn't bounce itself up

- bouncing, see comfort

What it did on the other hand was making the shortcomings of the rear suspension bloody obvious. Same issue there: spring rate off, too much compression, not enough rebound. On the XC this can be at least halfway corrected by adjusting the rebound properly, on the Roadie that isn't an option.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
So far I LOVE mine. It improves everything.
I know, I have ridden a Roadie with exactly the setup I have now (AK-20 front, Öhlins rear) from a rider with exactly my weight. It was a pretty much perfect ride for my taste: tight, sporty, compliant, comfortable, you plain never ever thought about the suspension, it just works.

That's why I ordered mine this way. I'll install the shock this weekend and will likely go for a day ride in the mountains. I'll report back ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
Have fun with the instillation. I didn't have to install mine . The remote reservoir locate is a little odd. I'll post a pic of what we came up with on mine. We basically just flipped it around...
It doesn't look too hard. What do you mean by "just flipped it around"?
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:59 AM   #16758
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
It doesn't look too hard. What do you mean by "just flipped it around"?
the adjuster sticks out and i didnt like it sticking out because of it catching on my boots. we spun/ flipped it so the adjuster is towards the bottom. i can take some more pics later.

My bike


Not mine and found online...
see how it sticks out...? Well, I didn't like that.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:19 AM   #16759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post



I know, I have ridden a Roadie with exactly the setup I have now (AK-20 front, Öhlins rear) from a rider with exactly my weight. It was a pretty much perfect ride for my taste: tight, sporty, compliant, comfortable, you plain never ever thought about the suspension, it just works.
cug, we are pretty much the same weight (I am about 5lbs lighter) and also have a roadie, if at some point you have time I'd be stoked to get the ordering specs for your forks and shock (and maybe where you got them/price) as I am hoping to have the cash to order this stuff soon and I am looking for the same sort of rider characteristics. You were contemplating selling your tiger weren't you? What changed your mind?
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:26 AM   #16760
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Originally Posted by swimmer View Post
cug, we are pretty much the same weight (I am about 5lbs lighter) and also have a roadie
From all I read that bit of a weight difference doesn't make much of a difference. Overall we are talking about ~220kg bike (with some heavy farkles like engine guards and centerstand) + 12kg crap always bolted to the rear (topcase (4kg), toolkit (2kg), side case racks (6kg), some stuff in the top case) + 70kg rider + ~10kg gear. That's 312kg (687lbs) moving weight. Your 5lbs is less than 1% difference, I doubt you'd get different spring rates ... I doubt even my wife with 20lbs less than myself would get different spring rates ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer View Post
if at some point you have time I'd be stoked to get the ordering specs for your forks and shock (and maybe where you got them/price) as I am hoping to have the cash to order this stuff soon and I am looking for the same sort of rider characteristics.
I talked directly to Traxxion for the AK-20, told them my weight and which bike and what my riding preferences are. For the Öhlins I got the shock from Dan Kyle as he offered a good price. The offered service was kind of short and rude (like "don't have the time to install it" and "I can set up the rear, but not the front because it's not an Öhlins (or because you didn't buy it here)") but the price was right and I wanted to install it myself anyways.


Quote:
Originally Posted by swimmer View Post
You were contemplating selling your tiger weren't you? What changed your mind?
I certainly was. I just didn't feel okay on the bike anymore after my crash and the repair experience with the local shop was completely abysmal. The worst experience I ever had with any kind of vehicle in any kind of shop.

But in the end I decided I've put too much money into the bike to sell it now for low price and take a big hit. I still loved the ride and over time I also got over the bad feeling. It's a great bike and I wouldn't know what could replace it for me at the moment. Test rode the F800GT, R1200RT (just for the fun of it), the new watercooled R1200GS (didn't impress me at all) and there was just nothing that spoke to me. Therefore I'll keep it for the time being.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:19 PM   #16761
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
The results are in.

Tuesday I changed my fork oil to straight 5W. I drained out what was in there into a measuring jug as I didn't want to strip the forks down completely. I got 460ml out of each leg. I replaced it with 400ml of 5W and put it all back together.
Last night I went for a 120 mile ride to my RAT club night and back. On the way there I took all the bumpiest roads I knew and the results were very favorable. Instead of "crashing into the bumps" it rode over them like a Rolls Royce. Well almost!
There didn't seem to be any lack of control in the damping department. The bike steered & stopped just the same. It was just so much more comfortable over the bumps and potholes. Front and rear seemed very well matched.

So my advice to those of you thinking of spending a fortune on cartridges and re-valving etc. is to try this first. Cost??? £10 for a litre of oil and 1 hour of time.
Sounds like you are happy with it, I'm not too familiar with changing suspension oil so I have some questions, do you know the weight that was in the forks? why did you put in less than what came out? and last...did you have to take the forks out of the triple tree, or is there an easier way?

Thank you
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Old 04-19-2013, 06:49 AM   #16762
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The change in suspension characteristics in this instance has less to do with the replacement of the oil, but rather with the dropping the fork oil level (and thus increasing the fork air capacity.)

Air is compressible, oil not so. The more air, and less oil, in the fork, the softer its action becomes.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:56 AM   #16763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some call me...tim View Post
Do you know what weight the stock fork oil is?
Not absolutely sure but everything seems to come with 10W. Certainly, going by the difference in ride quality, I'd say it was 10W.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:19 AM   #16764
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
Not absolutely sure but everything seems to come with 10W. Certainly, going by the difference in ride quality, I'd say it was 10W.
As Yossarian pointed out, the ride quality is probably more influenced by the lower oil level you have now. The oil viscosity also influences it but not as much. The service manual specifies 619cc for the XC fork of Showa SS8 10W oil (oil level of 107mm). Like this oil.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:41 AM   #16765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gusutavot800 View Post
Sounds like you are happy with it, I'm not too familiar with changing suspension oil so I have some questions, do you know the weight that was in the forks? why did you put in less than what came out? and last...did you have to take the forks out of the triple tree, or is there an easier way?

Thank you
Yes as per the above replies. My theory is that if you reduce the viscosity then you also need to reduce the spring rate. The easiest way of doing that, without swapping out the steel spring, is to increase the air gap.
It's all a bit of a guess at first but I've done this sort of thing on my last 4 bikes with good results. I may have gone too soft but I'm going to run it like this for a while longer and see how it goes. All I can say for now is that the ride quality is so much better. I have yet to try it on dirt roads but I thought my set up on my Scram was too soft at first but that turned out to be just right for the type of riding I do....i.e. riding at a sedate pace and NOT landing jumps off of tall buildings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
The service manual specifies 619cc for the XC fork of Showa SS8 10W oil (oil level of 107mm).
Just by tipping up the legs I couldn't get more than 460ml out even after pumping the damping rod several times. So I left it at that and put 400ml back in. No idea at this stage what the level is because I didn't want to strip it all out.
I can say that it looks like, on the XC forks, that you don't need any spring compressor as it's easy to pull the "spring compression collar" down by hand to get the "spring seat stopper washer" out to release it all. Diagram = http://www.worldoftriumph.com/triump...lock_03=560041

For my future reference.........Does anyone know, for sure, what has to taken out before the level is set? i.e. just the spring or spring and damping cartridge????
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:46 AM   #16766
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Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
Yes as per the above replies. My theory is that if you reduce the viscosity then you also need to reduce the spring rate.
Hmmm. I'm not a specialist but that sounds mixed up. Viscosity and air gap only change damping. The air gap gives you less initial compression damping as the air just compresses, then the oil needs to flow throw the damper stack. So, you get "air suspension" type ride up to the point where the air is compressed, then a transition to oil damping. On the way back (rebound) you get initial fast rebound through the decompressing air (not much rebound damping) then the oil flow kicks in and everything settles hopefully.

To me it sounds a little bit like you'll end with the a "Buick from the 70s" type of ride, probably less extreme, but still something I would personally probably dislike. It's very likely a super soft ride over bad roads, but control might be compromised. Or it might not be, as said, I'm not a specialist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
For my future reference.........Does anyone know, for sure, what has to taken out before the level is set? i.e. just the spring or spring and damping cartridge????
I don't have my manual here, but if nobody has one handy, I can look up the steps tonight.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:23 AM   #16767
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Fork oil refilling

Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
To me it sounds a little bit like you'll end with the a "Buick from the 70s" type of ride, probably less extreme, but still something I would personally probably dislike. It's very likely a super soft ride over bad roads, but control might be compromised. Or it might not be, as said, I'm not a specialist.

I don't have my manual here, but if nobody has one handy, I can look up the steps tonight.
Mine is on file on my workstation...

FORK OIL REFILLING
The oil level is measured from the upper surface of the fork outer tube, with the fork fully compressed and the spring removed.

Fork Oil Level, volume:
800 103mm, 553cc
XC 107mm 619cc
Spec is Showa SS 8

1. Fill the fork with the grade of oil specffied in the fork oil table, to the level above that which will finally be required.
2. Pump the fork assembly and damper several times to expel any trapped air then full compress the fork and support it in an upright position. Leve the fork for a few miutes to allow the oil to stabilise.
3. (paraphrasing...) use the special tool. But a syringe will work, or any fork oil level measuring tool.
4. Reassemble and reinstall.


With a larger air gap I would suspect a pogo affect as well. The forks bottom easy enough on a deep rut offroad, sure wouldn't want them any softer. In fact, may even add a few cc's of oil to them to help with bottoming. Did this with the marzzochi's on the husky and it made a world of difference.

What exactly is the problem with the XC forks anyway? They're plenty firm, very little dive, no corner wallowing. I find them to be just fine, even a little firm for road but that's okay. But then I'm old and slow.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:40 PM   #16768
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Cug,
Thanks for the report. We are about the same weight and I feel I can improve my roadie in the same way you did. I am just going to wait for another year or two for the fork oil and the shock oil to break. (and have the heart to spend this kind of cash) ,I think the Tiger is a great street bike, and very comfortable compared with my SV650 (with aftermarket suspension) but i have to move more on the seat in order not to scrape and be careful with hard braking because of excessive fork dive.
I too, rode last year in my normal way with zip ties on the front fork and was surprised to see how much suspension I have used. (Almost all)
Keep the information coming.




Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
Note that I have a Roadie, therefore no adjustment other than preload at the rear. The spring rate wasn't right for me weight, although with standard pre-load adjustment kind of okay, the sag was halfway correct, the damping okay but harsh and I think it does contribute to the slightly bouncy ride on uneven ground (same as the front but that is sorted already).

Also interesting is that it seems that there were several adjustments made to the Roadie suspension over the lifetime (or the production tolerances are outrageous - a thought I wouldn't discount on that cheap suspension setup the Roadie has). I've ridden a stock Roadie that was much more compliant and much less bouncy than mine.

The XC is completely different in that regard*(front and rear). After riding the Roadie, I didn't want the XC at all, way too soft for my riding, wobbly and bouncy. A total rocking horse ... But I have to admit, a very comfortable one.



Front has Traxxion AK-20 fully adjustable cartridges. I got these last summer and I'm very happy with them. The ride feels slightly tighter but still much more compliant. Spring rate for my weight, damping is pretty much perfect.

I had issues with the bike being bouncy which I attributed to the forks having a bad spring rate, too compression, and not enough rebound damping. Even for my light weight (70kg/155lbs before gear), I got a much stiffer spring, but also much more compliant and better set up damping.

This solved:

- brake dive, there is enough left to do typical corner entrance compression for sharper handling, but not more

- bottoming out, I didn hit the limit in the front a few times with my normal riding, but there wasn't much left even just going on a day trip on mountain roads here, I used probably 85 to 90% of the travel with normal, non-aggressive riding, now I'm using about 70% with the same style riding and have never pushed it all the way day down

- lean angle limits, due to the too soft springs I was compressing them too much in fast, high lean angle corners, which made me touch down foot pegs and other parts quite easily, together with a 15mm raise in the rear and the correct spring rate, that is much better now

- comfort issues, the ride is much more compliant now, compression is less harsh, rebound is a bit stronger, meaning that the bike doesn't bounce itself up

- bouncing, see comfort

What it did on the other hand was making the shortcomings of the rear suspension bloody obvious. Same issue there: spring rate off, too much compression, not enough rebound. On the XC this can be at least halfway corrected by adjusting the rebound properly, on the Roadie that isn't an option.



I know, I have ridden a Roadie with exactly the setup I have now (AK-20 front, Öhlins rear) from a rider with exactly my weight. It was a pretty much perfect ride for my taste: tight, sporty, compliant, comfortable, you plain never ever thought about the suspension, it just works.

That's why I ordered mine this way. I'll install the shock this weekend and will likely go for a day ride in the mountains. I'll report back ...



It doesn't look too hard. What do you mean by "just flipped it around"?
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:02 PM   #16769
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Tiger,
I have put racetech emulator on my SV and changed the fork oil a few times.
You measure from the top of the fork when the fork is fully collapsed with the springs out and the damping cartridge in (in my case was cartridge emulators)

BTW, more oil or higher viscosity oil will create more damping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blacktiger View Post
Y

For my future reference.........Does anyone know, for sure, what has to taken out before the level is set? i.e. just the spring or spring and damping cartridge????
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:05 PM   #16770
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Öhlins Rear Shock

Okay, here we go:

Old vs. New:



Installed, side view of remote reservoir and preload adjuster:



I did only a very short test ride on the local highway, which is really, really badly done - a concrete highway that tends toward washboard (for those who know it: CA85 between 101 and 280, and CA280 between 85 and Wolfe Rd).

So far I'm happy with the results. The bouncing is more or less completely gone, of course, the bad concrete on 280 still results in up and down, but it's more controlled now and it doesn't bounce around on the local streets anymore. So far so good. Sharp bumps seem to get filtered really well, slightly better even than from the forks, although I haven't played with the settings yet.

I will either spend some time myself figuring out the correct settings or go to my local suspension guru for a full setup. Might be worth the $20 to get a well sorted out base line and only adjust to my liking from there.

Pre-load: I checked with me on the bike, I get 50mm sag measured between frame and rear axle. This is with no pre-load at all. There is some adjustment possible in the shock itself, to get to the optimum of about 60mm, but so far so good - I measure without riding jacket, helmet, boots, and so on, so it might be already "just right" when I add all this. I haven't tried putting in more pre-load, this will happen tomorrow, just to see how the pre-load range works out.

Damping: So far I haven't played at all with the damping settings, it was already dark when I was done with the installation and I only wanted to get a first impression.

Installation: Installation was fairly easy. I took of the shifter assembly and sprocket cover, loosened the lower and upper bolts, removed the lowers, removed the upper, pulled out the OEM shock. That was done in about 20 minutes or so. Getting the Öhlins in was also fairly easy, although a little bit tight to get the remote parts through between engine and frame. My wife helped with that, I was holding the shock from below, she fiddled the reservoir and pre-load adjuster through, then I get the upper mounting bolt in to fix it in place. Took my time to install the reservoirs properly, played around a bit with how to twist and turn them, looked at the photos above, twisted and turned some more, finally found a position I liked and tightened the clamps and put the pre-load adjuster. Put the two lower bolts back in, tightened the lower and upper "handwarm", got the bike off the center stand to settle everything, put slightly more torque on the bolts, back on center stand, torque lower bolts to 80NM, off center stand, torque upper bolt to 48NM, re-install shift assembly (with the new Touratech folding shift lever I got from Germany), check all nuts and bolts one more time.

Overall install time was about two hours. Could easily be done in one if you know what you're doing and get a second pair of hands when needed without a delay.
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