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Old 05-25-2011, 08:55 AM   #5926
The Jerk
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Woohoo! Looks like all the Motech stuff is finally available to order on twistedthrottle.com. Warm up those credit cards!

Only thing missing is the alu rack. Got an email in about that. I really want to use that for my top case setup.
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Old 05-25-2011, 08:59 AM   #5927
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Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Triumph Italia conceived the basic bike in 2002. Check the history. It evolved from there and was on paper by 2006 and being mocked up and prototyped by 2007.

I have no doubt they borrowed some style elements from everyone, not just BMW, but I doubt we will see the numerous major failures the BMW F800GS has had. So far the basic Tiger 800 appears sound. Hoping for the best ...

Once again, I urge anyone who cares to go to Parallel Universe forum and start reading. Bring Aspirin.
Well, there is no denial that the BMW F800GS is a successful motorcycle. BMW has sold thousands of them. It has had problems, but the last iterations have been problem free. When you put thousands of bikes in the market, problems here and there are going to be found. And when you buy one of these bikes today, you know exactly what to expect from them.

Triumph brought their bikes to the market three/four years later. Triumph obviously learned a lot from BMW's experience, from product development to marketing. Still, the Tiger 800 is an unknown product at this point, and as you pointed out (along side a few others), you are waiting to see what it will turn to be. Right? Nothing wrong with that.

About F800GS vs Tiger 800XC comparisons, it has been unanimous that the 800GS is better for the non-paved stuff, and the 800XC better on the road. I tested both, and see how moto journalists have reached this conclusion. I've ordered the Tiger based on its road capability, not its dirt capability.

Talking about unkowns, and also what is next, BMW is already taking the F800GS concept to another level via their Husqvarna subsidiary. According to recent press releases, the new bike will have two street/enduro versions: one with a road orientation and one with an enduro orientation (besides two other models), with a higher displacement of the Rotax parallel twin (900cc). So the Triumph Tigers just arrived and will likely be behind in development purposes, at least on the off-pavement stuff.

Here are some links that talk about what's next from BMW group on this segment:

Thread in ADV, with video of the new Rotax motor
Gizmag piece on the new Husky
Autonewblog report
MotorcycleUSA report

And a video of the F800GS, where to me it is shown at its best, as a nice enduro bike, with limitations, but with a good vocation for the dirt.



In summary, I do believe the Tiger 800 today is the better road bike. Offer more distance riding characteristics for this now called middle weight segment of adventure bikes. It fails on the range, though, and adventure bike ergos. Still, not a bad motorcycle and I want one. I ordered one.

Lion
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:14 AM   #5928
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Was into RPM Cycles in Dallas earlier this morning to pick up the license plate for my T800. They actually had two T800s on the floor, unsold. One is a yellow non ABS and the other is a white ABS. Just as important, they have received their demo Tiger 800XC, for anyone in the area that is looking for a test ride.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:27 AM   #5929
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I've got about 200 miles on my XC, and today decided to slam the brakes hard from around 60mph. The bike stopped incredibly well, with little to no dive. However, there was a funny shudder from the rear brake pedal. Rear end felt fine, it was just the pedal itself kind of pulsing. I've never felt this before, and yes it is an ABS bike. I was able to duplicate it every time slamming the brakes. Under normal riding/braking conditions it doesn't do it.

Is this normal? A function of the ABS? I've never felt it on any other bike, ABS or otherwise including my old 1050 Tiger.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:38 AM   #5930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post

About F800GS vs Tiger 800XC comparisons, it has been unanimous that the 800GS is better for the non-paved stuff, and the 800XC better on the road. I tested both, and see how moto journalists have reached this conclusion. I've ordered the Tiger based on its road capability, not its dirt capability.
Lion
I've seen this from most reviewers also, but nobody has said WHY. I assume it's largely based on lower weight and suspension for the F800GS, and the lack of engine buzz on the 800XC. But I'd love to hear more discussion on this distinction.
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Old 05-25-2011, 11:47 AM   #5931
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I've got about 200 miles on my XC, and today decided to slam the brakes hard from around 60mph. The bike stopped incredibly well, with little to no dive. However, there was a funny shudder from the rear brake pedal. Rear end felt fine, it was just the pedal itself kind of pulsing. I've never felt this before, and yes it is an ABS bike. I was able to duplicate it every time slamming the brakes. Under normal riding/braking conditions it doesn't do it.

Is this normal? A function of the ABS? I've never felt it on any other bike, ABS or otherwise including my old 1050 Tiger.
If you got on the rear enough to engage the ABS then a pulsing through the pedal is normal - it's a side effect of the modulator pulsing the pressure in the brake lines. If you've never felt that on an ABS vehicle before, then you've never engaged ABS before. The 1050 would additionally make a loud clicking noise when the ABS modulator was working. Haven't tried it out yet on the 800. Just go jam the rear pedal down as hard as you can while riding (check mirrors first). You'll feel and maybe hear the ABS in operation.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:19 PM   #5932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Triumph brought their bikes to the market three/four years later. Triumph obviously learned a lot from BMW's experience, from product development to marketing.
Good post, great links, Thanks!
The F800GS didn't get to the USA until '09. That was the first year F800GS, IIRC. So two years before the Tiger 800. The Tiger 800 was already long in R&D at that point. Did Triumph copy? Sure, probably did, but in style, not engineering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
Talking about unkowns, and also what is next, BMW is already taking the F800GS concept to another level via their Husqvarna subsidiary. According to recent press releases, the new bike will have two street/enduro versions: one with a road orientation and one with an enduro orientation (besides two other models), with a higher displacement of the Rotax parallel twin (900cc).
The Husky element is very interesting. Remains to be seen whether BMW engineers have better ideas than the Italians.
Great links!
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:27 PM   #5933
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Originally Posted by patl View Post
I've seen this from most reviewers also, but nobody has said WHY. I assume it's largely based on lower weight and suspension for the F800GS, and the lack of engine buzz on the 800XC. But I'd love to hear more discussion on this distinction.
So would I First up, I'd love to see the true wet weight of the Tiger 800XC. MCN (usa) reports the F800GS weighs in wet at 490 lbs. I trust these guys. They are quite good with such things.

So, is the Tiger 800 heavier than the F800GS ?

It is possible the F800GS is better than the Tiger 800 out of the box and that the Tiger will need more set up and tweaking. Much can be done to things like:
1. Bar position/height
2. Suspension
3. Minor geometry changes (ride height, front to rear bias)

I've not yet seen a good back to back test of the two bikes .... with BOTH equipped with real off road tires. Makes zero sense evaluate a bike off road without knobbies.

I've seen some videos featuring the F800GS ... some very impressive ones taken at speed on pretty rough tracks. Makes the F800GS look good.
Can the Tiger match it? I'm betting it can ... but might need some mods.
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Old 05-25-2011, 01:50 PM   #5934
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
So would I First up, I'd love to see the true wet weight of the Tiger 800XC. MCN (usa) reports the F800GS weighs in wet at 490 lbs. I trust these guys. They are quite good with such things.

So, is the Tiger 800 heavier than the F800GS ?

It is possible the F800GS is better than the Tiger 800 out of the box and that the Tiger will need more set up and tweaking. Much can be done to things like:
1. Bar position/height
2. Suspension
3. Minor geometry changes (ride height, front to rear bias)

I've not yet seen a good back to back test of the two bikes .... with BOTH equipped with real off road tires. Makes zero sense evaluate a bike off road without knobbies.

I've seen some videos featuring the F800GS ... some very impressive ones taken at speed on pretty rough tracks. Makes the F800GS look good.
Can the Tiger match it? I'm betting it can ... but might need some mods.
Yeah, exactly. If the F800GS is better in dirt because it's got better geometry, for example (I haven't looked at those specs), that's fine, hard to fix. But if tire swaps and new fork springs make them equivalent, for another example - that's nifty.

In the end, I need something more road-worthy than dirt-worthy, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind the blanket voting that the F800GS is the better bike off road. Some reviews, including MCN's, say something like "upgrades on the Tiger would make them equal", but they don't go any further.
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Old 05-25-2011, 02:20 PM   #5935
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Originally Posted by patl View Post
Yeah, exactly. If the F800GS is better in dirt because it's got better geometry, for example (I haven't looked at those specs), that's fine, hard to fix. But if tire swaps and new fork springs make them equivalent, for another example - that's nifty.

In the end, I need something more road-worthy than dirt-worthy, but I'm curious about the reasoning behind the blanket voting that the F800GS is the better bike off road. Some reviews, including MCN's, say something like "upgrades on the Tiger would make them equal", but they don't go any further.
Sorry folks, but I beg to differ; In my opinion the T800 is better than the F800GS off tarmac. Mostly because it has more traction in the front end. On tarmac they feels more or less the same to me.
Engine wise the T800 wins hands down fore me. Maybe not faster, but much smoother and with a much wider powerband. It's a pity Triumph did not put in a gearbox with wider gaps between the gears on this wide powerband motor.

4bikes screwed with this post 05-25-2011 at 11:49 PM
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:37 PM   #5936
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I have trouble with that analysis. For smoothness I give credits to the Triumph. A triple will always be smoother than a twin. A vertical twin, with 2 pistons rising and falling together is one the most difficult motor types to smooth out. Bmw did it with a counter weight that looks like a third cylinder horizontally in the crankcase. It not only quells some vibes it transfers them from up and down to forward and back. It feels smoother to the rider but not a triple nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.

One advantage a twin has over a triple is the firing impulses. A single or less so a twin has a lag in the transference of power to the rear wheel which allows the tire to hook up better in loose terrain. Probably not an issue for a casual rider but it is there for the experts.

The Triumph does have an amazingly wide range of power. But the BMW still makes more torque in the lower RPM range. That makes it a very easy bike to ride off road. I don't know the overall gearing ratio to compare one bike against the other. Luckily they are both chain drive so that can be easily changed one way or the other.

I would love the see the weight comparison. I don't believe the BMW advertised weight, but looking at the lump in the Triumph you will never convince me it is within 30lbs of the BMW until some one put them on a scale. Irregardless of the weight, that 30 pounds of fuel between your knees is higher than the 4.2 gal under your butt.

The stock BMW suspension sucks IMO, but the bike still has more travel and ground clearance, probably less weight and lower cog than the Triumph, so in the hands of an expert I believe it will perform better off road. The reality is that most riders of either bike don't come close to using the full capability of the bikes.

The BMW is not the slug, some people claim it to be. In the only 1/4 mile numbers I have seen is a .20 second difference. If that is important to you, look at a Triumph 1050, it is quicker than either one.

Enjoy your Triumph, good bike, IMO better on the road. I want to see a valid head to head off road, that MCN reports was a joke.
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:57 PM   #5937
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Quote:
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I am considering the Caribou cases $805.00 total with frames and cases. Alternatively, I am looking at a Remus carbon Hexacone exhaust can ($790.00) which stays cool enough that I can throw over my soft bags. I like the idea of soft bags that are more narrow than hard cases with the wide spread for the exhaust.

I also am interested in lowering the exhaust and then having hard cases without the big gap for the exhaust. That would be narrow enough to be pleasing to the eye.

Glad to hear about any other ideas people have.

Paul

Paul thanks for the Info!
Question for lowering the exhaust... how will this effect your off road clearance? Would you do this yourself?
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Old 05-25-2011, 03:59 PM   #5938
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Originally Posted by itsatdm View Post
I have trouble with that analysis. For smoothness I give credits to the Triumph. A triple will always be smoother than a twin. A vertical twin, with 2 pistons rising and falling together is one the most difficult motor types to smooth out. Bmw did it with a counter weight that looks like a third cylinder horizontally in the crankcase. It not only quells some vibes it transfers them from up and down to forward and back. It feels smoother to the rider but not a triple nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.

One advantage a twin has over a triple is the firing impulses. A single or less so a twin has a lag in the transference of power to the rear wheel which allows the tire to hook up better in loose terrain. Probably not an issue for a casual rider but it is there for the experts.

The Triumph does have an amazingly wide range of power. But the BMW still makes more torque in the lower RPM range. That makes it a very easy bike to ride off road. I don't know the overall gearing ratio to compare one bike against the other. Luckily they are both chain drive so that can be easily changed one way or the other.

I would love the see the weight comparison. I don't believe the BMW advertised weight, but looking at the lump in the Triumph you will never convince me it is within 30lbs of the BMW until some one put them on a scale. Irregardless of the weight, that 30 pounds of fuel between your knees is higher than the 4.2 gal under your butt.

The stock BMW suspension sucks IMO, but the bike still has more travel and ground clearance, probably less weight and lower cog than the Triumph, so in the hands of an expert I believe it will perform better off road. The reality is that most riders of either bike don't come close to using the full capability of the bikes.

The BMW is not the slug, some people claim it to be. In the only 1/4 mile numbers I have seen is a .20 second difference. If that is important to you, look at a Triumph 1050, it is quicker than either one.

Enjoy your Triumph, good bike, IMO better on the road. I want to see a valid head to head off road, that MCN reports was a joke.
Nice analysis.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:02 PM   #5939
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Good post, great links, Thanks!
The F800GS didn't get to the USA until '09. That was the first year F800GS, IIRC. So two years before the Tiger 800. The Tiger 800 was already long in R&D at that point. Did Triumph copy? Sure, probably did, but in style, not engineering.

The Husky element is very interesting. Remains to be seen whether BMW engineers have better ideas than the Italians.
Great links!
AFAIK, the first model year for the F800GS was 2008 (Europe only). I agree with you, USA did not get it until the 2009 model.
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Old 05-25-2011, 04:29 PM   #5940
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nor is a triple as naturally smooth as a 4 banger.

I rind the Triumph triple motor is way less buzzy than the 4 cylinder bikes I have ridden.

I wonder if there is a numerical way to measure and quantify the smoothness of a motor?
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