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Old 08-25-2011, 04:15 AM   #8116
Lion BR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urquell View Post
Absolutely sure. I have a very long back and forth set of emails between myself and Triumph Customer Service representative Peter Carleo. Only one week ago he denied any knowledge at all about a widespread stalling problem or a soon to be released fix. Here are just two of these email communications:

Peter, I am due to bring my bike in for service later today. In the meantime I noticed this post from 8/5/11:

"I've been following the stalling threads on here and on the tiger uk forum. Mine is not (yet) doing it, but I spoke with my local dealer (uk based) earlier today and he confidently told me that a "magic bullet" is coming from triumph to all dealers towards the end of next week - a software patch apparently. He didn't know more than that, or what the specific issue itself is (save for the stalling) He went on to say that once the patch is loaded on their demo bike (which has the stalling problem) they'll see how it is and assuming it resolves it, will call in the owners with the stalling issue and get it sorted. So, hopefully that info might help someone - so put some pressure on your own dealers and see what they say."

Any truth to this "magic bullet" and if so is it available yet? Should I wait to bring in the bike until the "magic bullet" is available? Thanks, Greg.




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Peter Carleo to me
show details Aug 16 (9 days ago)


Greg,

I never trust the posting on the internet. So what we are reading is not official Triumph information.

What is true is that Triumph is always testing our products, and often will make little changes to the bikes, in many various forms. Since we don't know what your bike is doing, or rather why it is doing it, I have no information regarding what may be needed to resolve.

I will have our tech contact the dealer once the bike is at the shop.

Thanks M8!
Thank you for posting this.

I had the same interaction, except on the phone, with Triumph USA. On that conversation they denied a stalling problem, they denied they were working on a fix, they dismissed internet claims of the problem or fix, and they said I should take my bike to the dealer for service as each bike is different and they were confident my problem would be fixed by the dealer technician, in contact with the Triumph technician.

I did not take my bike to the dealer because I already knew, from the untrustworthy internet, from cases in Greece, England, US, and the most recent one in Alaska that what they were going to do in my bike was not necessarily going to work. I did not want my bike to be there, sitting idle (pun intended) for nothing. I'd rather be riding and working around the problem while waiting for the internet rumored fix.

Yes, ADVGRRRLS, by the time you posted your problem on your Ride Report, I had offered to submit to you a 16 page MSword document where I had collected information on this issue from the 800 UK Forum, dating back to I think April and going all the way to June, with owners' reports of the problem, their interaction with dealers, including off-site Triumph tech participation via internet, where they received a bike's data and worked with dealer technicians. I had also documented their reported interactions with Triumph customer service, and the fixes that did not work (work on throttle bodies, stepper motor, TPS and the Arrow tune - the latter worked for some, not all). The one thing I heard from your report for the first time was the official mention of the "stepper motor" as part of the diagnosis.

My impression is that Triumph, as mentioned by others here, is in the hands of attorneys. Which makes them very similar to BMW. Actually, Peter Carleo's response posted above, saying that "Triumph is always testing our products, and often will make little changes to the bikes, in many various forms." is exactly what BMW told their customers in the case of the F800GS.

The difference is that since BMW is a hated brand by non BMW owners (something I don't quite understand, actually), then people point their fingers squarely at BMW for the problem and for denying it (which they actually reverse in the last several months, admitting they expanded their line up too fast and some quality problems appeared, and they have been working on those). Here, on the Triumph discussion a few of us point fingers at the Triumph attorneys.

Continuing on this parallel between BMW and Triumph, on the BMW 800GS' issues, the BMW haters say BMW is "blaming the owners" for the problems on the bikes. Here, Triumph simply dismisses the internet, saying the information, our testimonials of the problem, with video and all (the information YOU and I put forth right here and in the other related forums) is not true. Triumph could be calling us liars, if you want to go that far. But yes, in reality, they are protecting themselves.

But I digress. What we know is that history tells us that truth prevails. Triumph knew about the problem, as documented by the reports that a fix is available, and it even has a name to it (Bulletin 431 or something similar).

What am I going to do? I will be taking my bike in for the upgrade at some point in the future, AFTER I hear more information from owners' experiences about the fix, which I hope to read about it right here at the untrustworthy internet.

Best of luck guys!
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Lion BR screwed with this post 08-25-2011 at 04:23 AM
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Old 08-25-2011, 04:31 AM   #8117
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Originally Posted by davevv View Post

Okay, my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. Every time I read this comment in your ride report I wondered just exactly what does "played with the throttle cable" mean? Tightening or loosening the adjustment? Grabbing it in a particular spot and wiggling for 20 seconds? Stroking it suggestively? Rubbing it until the friction raises the temperature by four degrees? What? My dictionary of technical terms doesn't have an answer for me.


I followed your ride report all the way and thought it was outstanding. I rode many of those same roads in '07 on a new Ulysses (ride report is buried in the archives here somewhere), so I was able to see in my mind and relive much of what you were experiencing although my trip was thankfully much drier than yours. Many thanks for the brilliant job you did in taking us along.

By the way, the one road you missed, The Glen Highway, is an exceptionally beautiful ride.
I really do not have a technical term for what we did either. We did exactly what I posted, played with the cable, maybe tightened it at times with the throttle slightly open. We have no idea why jingling the cable and playing with the throttle worked. Maybe it did noting but it did seem to stop the stalling issue for the moment. Enough so we could actually ride almost 13000 KM with both bikes having this issue along the way.

The bikes never died for eternity. We had to try and work this out for ourselves and this is all I can say. We moved the throttle cable, opened it up to either hand tighten or wrench tighten the bolt while we would hold the throttle in place enough to bring up the revs. It was the only thing that made sense to us. If we could keep the bike idling over 1000 RPMS then they would not stall. I would imagine by now the throttle cables must be stretched out but we have not been informed of the inspection of the bikes if it has been done.

We also tried a reset by disconnecting the batteries and then letting the bikes idle for 15 mins. That seemed to work for a few hundred KM's. As the for the Glenn Highway, I think we were on it except between Wasilla and Glennallan.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:40 AM   #8118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urquell View Post
Absolutely sure. I have a very long back and forth set of emails between myself and Triumph Customer Service representative Peter Carleo. Only one week ago he denied any knowledge at all about a widespread stalling problem or a soon to be released fix. Here are just two of these email communications:

Peter, I am due to bring my bike in for service later today. In the meantime I noticed this post from 8/5/11:

"I've been following the stalling threads on here and on the tiger uk forum. Mine is not (yet) doing it, but I spoke with my local dealer (uk based) earlier today and he confidently told me that a "magic bullet" is coming from triumph to all dealers towards the end of next week - a software patch apparently. He didn't know more than that, or what the specific issue itself is (save for the stalling) He went on to say that once the patch is loaded on their demo bike (which has the stalling problem) they'll see how it is and assuming it resolves it, will call in the owners with the stalling issue and get it sorted. So, hopefully that info might help someone - so put some pressure on your own dealers and see what they say."

Any truth to this "magic bullet" and if so is it available yet? Should I wait to bring in the bike until the "magic bullet" is available? Thanks, Greg.




Reply

Peter Carleo to me
show details Aug 16 (9 days ago)


Greg,

I never trust the posting on the internet. So what we are reading is not official Triumph information.

What is true is that Triumph is always testing our products, and often will make little changes to the bikes, in many various forms. Since we don't know what your bike is doing, or rather why it is doing it, I have no information regarding what may be needed to resolve.

I will have our tech contact the dealer once the bike is at the shop.

Thanks M8!
What he said makes sense. If you dont bring your bike to a dealer he has no way of knowing whats wrong. I got honesty from my dealer. I never felt like I needed to talk to Triumph.
Atleast Peter didnt tell you that you dont know how to ride your bike (like some inmates on this thread).
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:16 AM   #8119
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It is not the lawyers dictating how Triumph or any company responds to claims such as "and I found 30 more reports of the same problem on the internet". That kind of statement is useless to them. They want real data from the service centers such as symptoms and tests performed by techs. Responding to anything else would be as rational as giving up beef because Oprah brought hysterics to yet another audience wetting their undies over mad cow rumors.
The only useful action is to keep working with the factory or strike out on your own like the KTM owners.
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:17 AM   #8120
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Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
What he said makes sense. If you dont bring your bike to a dealer he has no way of knowing whats wrong. I got honesty from my dealer. I never felt like I needed to talk to Triumph.
Atleast Peter didnt tell you that you dont know how to ride your bike (like some inmates on this thread).
I agree that's a completely reasonable response from Triumph and is in no way a basis for accusing them of being dishonest.
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Old 08-25-2011, 08:46 AM   #8121
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Tiger 800 Stalling

"If you dont bring your bike to a dealer he has no way of knowing whats wrong."

I'm not so sure about that. I think Triumph knew what was wrong even before I brought the bike in for service. I think they understood the problem, they just didn't know how to fix it. So neither did their dealers.

Sure, bringing the bike in can help rule out some mechanical issue that is unrelated to the widespread stalling problems. And maybe analysis of the bike can help add to their database of knowledge about the stalling problem. That is ultimately why I decided to bring the bike in for service, even though I strongly suspected it was a total waste of my time.

They could have been honest and said they were aware of a stalling problem, and that I should bring my bike in because they wanted real data to work on the solution. That would have satisfied me, but that is not what they did. And later, they asked me to bring the bike in AFTER the "magic bullet" fix was already in the pipeline, but not yet available to my dealer. They did this even though I made them aware that I knew about it. I therefore wasted my time and did not contribute any real data to the engineers working on a solution.

Triumph could have been direct, but instead they were evasive. Triumph could have been honest, but instead they were certainly not honest. I guess we all can have differing ideas about what constitutes honesty.
honest adj. 1 truthful 2 frank and open

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Old 08-25-2011, 09:16 AM   #8122
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It's ridiculous to suggest that Triumph should ignore the many reported problems on the internet...I find the information I get right here to be consistently better than what I get at the dealer. Times have changed, the internet provides what manufacturers used to pay good money for and then only at a fraction of the scale, and that is focus grouping and beta testing. If they read the intelligent insights on the bike written in this thread they would be so much further ahead in solving the problem than just relying on what their dealers are telling them.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:29 AM   #8123
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Originally Posted by eye.surgeon View Post
It's ridiculous to suggest that Triumph should ignore the many reported problems on the internet...I find the information I get right here to be consistently better than what I get at the dealer. Times have changed, the internet provides what manufacturers used to pay good money for and then only at a fraction of the scale, and that is focus grouping and beta testing. If they read the intelligent insights on the bike written in this thread they would be so much further ahead in solving the problem than just relying on what their dealers are telling them.
Poppycock. Are you seriously suggesting a major corporation that builds a product with serious potential safety issues (e.g. a Motorcycle) should use anything it sees on the internet as part of the product management of it's products ? The only thing they can go by is what they and their dealers see/feel/experience with their own eyes.

Taking your username at face value - would you take any advice/ideas from the internet before operating on someone ?

Do I own a '12 800XC ? I know my sig says I do but do I really ?

p.s. I do actually, I just fitted Barkbusters to it but you get my point...
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:43 AM   #8124
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Poppycock. Are you seriously suggesting a major corporation that builds a product with serious potential safety issues (e.g. a Motorcycle) should use anything it sees on the internet as part of the product management of it's products ? The only thing they can go by is what they and their dealers see/feel/experience with their own eyes.

Taking your username at face value - would you take any advice/ideas from the internet before operating on someone ?

Do I own a '12 800XC ? I know my sig says I do but do I really ?

p.s. I do actually, I just fitted Barkbusters to it but you get my point...
If I had hundreds of patients on the internet all reporting the same problem with a surgery I was performing, you bet I would use that information to troubleshoot and correct the problem. Triumph sitting back and waiting for dealers to come to them with the problem introduces a substantial delay and a dense filter on the information they are receiving. Welcome to 2011, the internet is THE interface between customer and manufacturer.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:01 AM   #8125
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If I had hundreds of patients on the internet all reporting the same problem with a surgery I was performing, you bet I would use that information to troubleshoot and correct the problem. Triumph sitting back and waiting for dealers to come to them with the problem introduces a substantial delay and a dense filter on the information they are receiving. Welcome to 2011, the internet is THE interface between customer and manufacturer.
Sorry, not buying it. So you would change a procedure or change a piece of equipment solely on the basis of some internet posts ?

How are Triumph (or anyone for that matter) able to diagnose a problem with a motorcycle over the internet ? The ONLY way they can diagnose the problem is via their dealers. Does that mean they didn't read of the problem via ADV and other forums ? Of course not but as soon as they admit this, every freakin' nutcase will appear on the internet spouting about how bad Triumph is etc.

I work in the business and you're wrong, the internet is not THE interface between customer and manufacturer (if it were, why don't they sell everything over the internet ?) it is ONE of the interfaces.
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Old 08-25-2011, 10:21 AM   #8126
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Man, this is getting old. It is what it is, gentlemen. Move on.

Just got back from the dealer where I had the new download installed. I don't have the stalling issue but I was interested to see if it helped with the snatchy throttle. I feel like it did some. Better but not as good as it could be.

I can't notice any fast idle for a couple of seconds like was reported earlier.

Bottom line, the bike runs great and is a tad bit easier to ride.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:01 AM   #8127
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:43 PM   #8128
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Service Bulletin 431

I'm not having the stalling problem but I just received a call from my dealer stating that service bulletin 431 has been issued by Triumph and is a software update. Told me to stop by the next time I'm in the area.
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Old 08-25-2011, 12:51 PM   #8129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eye.surgeon View Post
It's ridiculous to suggest that Triumph should ignore the many reported problems on the internet...I find the information I get right here to be consistently better than what I get at the dealer. Times have changed, the internet provides what manufacturers used to pay good money for and then only at a fraction of the scale, and that is focus grouping and beta testing. If they read the intelligent insights on the bike written in this thread they would be so much further ahead in solving the problem than just relying on what their dealers are telling them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
Poppycock. Are you seriously suggesting a major corporation that builds a product with serious potential safety issues (e.g. a Motorcycle) should use anything it sees on the internet as part of the product management of it's products ? The only thing they can go by is what they and their dealers see/feel/experience with their own eyes.

Taking your username at face value - would you take any advice/ideas from the internet before operating on someone ?

Do I own a '12 800XC ? I know my sig says I do but do I really ?

p.s. I do actually, I just fitted Barkbusters to it but you get my point...
Quote:
Originally Posted by eye.surgeon View Post
If I had hundreds of patients on the internet all reporting the same problem with a surgery I was performing, you bet I would use that information to troubleshoot and correct the problem. Triumph sitting back and waiting for dealers to come to them with the problem introduces a substantial delay and a dense filter on the information they are receiving. Welcome to 2011, the internet is THE interface between customer and manufacturer.
I think in a way ... you are both correct. The internet should, IMO, be just one element the OEM's should be using to track and solve problems. They need staff reading useful forums and following owner responses. That staff has to be the "interpreter" of the this "data".

As Eye Surgeon suggests ... the sample numbers compared to earlier methods are huge on the net. Are there spurious accounts? Of course ... but the staff need to shift through all of it and filter the crap out.

What better way to get feedback? Dealers don't do surveys and mostly check boxes about problems. YES or NO. But there is more to it. Dealers can't know everything that is going on world wide with a bike or its problems. Triumph have the opportunity to stay in closer touch with issues and to respond more quickly to problems by using on line forums such as this. It's just another useful tool for them to help solve issues in a timely manner.
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Old 08-25-2011, 01:27 PM   #8130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urquell View Post
"If you dont bring your bike to a dealer he has no way of knowing whats wrong."

I'm not so sure about that. I think Triumph knew what was wrong even before I brought the bike in for service. I think they understood the problem, they just didn't know how to fix it. So neither did their dealers.

Sure, bringing the bike in can help rule out some mechanical issue that is unrelated to the widespread stalling problems. And maybe analysis of the bike can help add to their database of knowledge about the stalling problem. That is ultimately why I decided to bring the bike in for service, even though I strongly suspected it was a total waste of my time.

They could have been honest and said they were aware of a stalling problem, and that I should bring my bike in because they wanted real data to work on the solution. That would have satisfied me, but that is not what they did. And later, they asked me to bring the bike in AFTER the "magic bullet" fix was already in the pipeline, but not yet available to my dealer. They did this even though I made them aware that I knew about it. I therefore wasted my time and did not contribute any real data to the engineers working on a solution.

Triumph could have been direct, but instead they were evasive. Triumph could have been honest, but instead they were certainly not honest. I guess we all can have differing ideas about what constitutes honesty.
honest adj. 1 truthful 2 frank and open

When people tell me how to do my job I tell them to turn in an application. Large corporations do what they do for a reason. I would be willing to bet Mr. Peter told you what he told you because someone told him to tell you what he told you...... Huh? Anyway. Lets move on. Im sorry you werent happy with your conversations within the Triumph corporation. But, it is what it is...
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