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Old 10-07-2011, 02:16 PM   #8866
Mercury264
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Originally Posted by bross View Post
Not just gravel or loose surfaces but a steep cobblestone street can be interesting as well. Think small town in the Alps. Good luck NOT running straight into that building at the end on any BMW....

Gravel I can see, but how does ABS NOT help in this situation ?

Again, just trying to figure this whole ABS on a bike thing out.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:21 PM   #8867
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Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
This makes me want to do the same set up with the tiger. The first video is a terrible example. He goes half way down the hill with no feet even on the pegs, so thats telling me that he only has front break applied (maybe). He was doomed to start with. Without ABS and only front break applied he would have tucked the front end and yard sailed over the handle bars! ABS may have actually save this guy from breaking his neck.
Totally agree - he was pretty much useless going down that hill. He was lucky to not friggin' kill himself....all the gear, no idea. Pathetic.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:51 PM   #8868
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Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
Gravel I can see, but how does ABS NOT help in this situation ?

Again, just trying to figure this whole ABS on a bike thing out.
Cobble stone or simply bumpy road and the front wheel is bouncing enough to leave the pavement so the (BMW) ABS thinks the wheel is locking, releases the brake just in time for the wheel to be on the next cobblestone where it could apply some braking, releases the brake again and you basically free wheel with no braking down the hill.

Riders on the F800ST bikes were having similar problems just braking on a slightly bumpy road with several riders having near misses of almost riding into the car in front of them simply because they had no brakes due to their ABS system.

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...ht=abs+release

From the thread...
The Event;

For me I experience what seems like a full loss of brakes for up to two car lengths. This occurs;

- on a dry road
- when not braking hard out
- when braking in a straight line
- when there is no chance of rear wheel lift off
- when there is no chance of a slide
- I hit a small bump or dip the size of a catseye
- while holding the braking lever and decelerating the ABS system takes over and releases the brakes for up to two car lengths before re-applying them, while I'm still holding the brake lever.

I believe;
- this will injure or kill a rider.
- is unsafe and needs to be fixed.

If you are too hard on the rear brake, the bike releases for a short time and re-engages. This is not the problem.


Not sure why BMW have these problems with their ABS, they've been doing ABS longer than anyone and you don't hear complaints from other brands about this kind of free wheeling. For the record I'm not a BMW hater, owned and rode an R1200RT with the really hated servo brakes but never had a problem with them in 34,000kms and that bike would stop quicker than anything I've ever owned.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:00 PM   #8869
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Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
Gravel I can see, but how does ABS NOT help in this situation ?

Again, just trying to figure this whole ABS on a bike thing out.
A good ABS doesn't need any figuring, just hit the front brake, and the bike decellerates, perhaps not always as fast as you could stop it yourself if you regularly train, but in a controlled manner, but watch out a good ABS willlet you make a stoppy on most bikes, so you still have to be alert when riding.
Some ABSses have implemented an anti-stoppy algorithm, that prevents the lifting of the rear wheel alltogether, but that has the nasty effect that if the rear wheel is bumped around by the underground, the anti-stoppy system will prevent any decelleration,becaus the "logic" thinks the rear wheel skids. Edog has posted a hilaious vid about suchs a ABS working.

And beware to let the ABS do its work its essential to not (over)use your rear brake, then most ABSses will get triggered very easily by taht, and give the rider false signals on the rear brake, and most will instictivly loosen up the front grip, long before the ABS thinks thefront locks.

So in any panic braking (if your not riding a battlecruiser or 2wheeled car) just use the front, and grab the clutch, and leave the rear wheel spinning, it wil stabilise the bike, and the ABS will stop almost any bike way faster with only the front applied than most bikers dare to brake at all...
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:09 PM   #8870
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Originally Posted by bross View Post
Don't generalize about ABS in the dirt. BMW ABS blows chunks in the dirt as demonstrated in those videos. Some ABS is very good in the dirt. Yamaha's new system on the Super Tenere is excellent in the dirt with NO reason to turn it off for everyday riders. Looks like the Tiger's system works OK off road as well.

Problem is dual sport riders have been brain washed by living with BMW's system for so long that they simply parrot that you have to turn off ABS in the dirt. Bullshit. Just test the ABS on YOUR bike and see what it does. I have ABS on my Honda CBF and have tried it on gravel roads and you have a surprising amount of braking available on gravel roads. It takes a pretty good squeeze to get the ABS to kick in and yes on the CBF I get that free wheeling feeling when it does but this is a purely road oriented bike.
Who's generalizing? You bolded the second part of my statement, but not the first I didn't say all abs blows based on all available data. I said based on the second video. Perhaps I should have said that specific BMW with that specific rider on that specific day with that specific phase of the moon.

There's lots of discussion about ABS on this forum. Since you seem fairly knowledgeable, why is BMW having this problem? I don't recall anyone complaining about freewheeling on abs BMW bikes from the eighties. If they could get it right, more or less, 25 years ago, what happened with the new ones? For the record I am not anti abs. I've never owned a bike with abs. I would be leary of a bike with abs I could not switch off until there is considerable field experience with that specific bike, i.e. the new Wee strom with non-switchable abs.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:14 PM   #8871
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Originally Posted by fbj913 View Post
I went XC for the suspension, spoked wheels, extra clearence. I had a V-Strom a few years back and it always made me nervous having a solid wheel.
Greetings fbj. Just reading through this mammoth thread, getting close to pulling the trigger on an 800xc. I noticed your location, and also your V-Strom experience, we have both of these things in common...hopefully soon one more thing!

I'm actually in the Olathe area. I'm a single track guy by nature, but tried the VStrom and sort of found it lacking. Great road bike, just scary everywhere else. Had a 640 E for awhile, boy do I regret letting that go. Spend most of my riding time on my KTM 300.

That said, I'm hoping to add the Tiger to the garage.

Curious, did you buy local (KC)? Ever do any two-up riding? Wife has taken a bit of interest in riding lately.

GW.
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:29 PM   #8872
Mercury264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bross View Post
Cobble stone or simply bumpy road and the front wheel is bouncing enough to leave the pavement so the (BMW) ABS thinks the wheel is locking, releases the brake just in time for the wheel to be on the next cobblestone where it could apply some braking, releases the brake again and you basically free wheel with no braking down the hill.

Riders on the F800ST bikes were having similar problems just braking on a slightly bumpy road with several riders having near misses of almost riding into the car in front of them simply because they had no brakes due to their ABS system.

http://f800riders.org/forum/showthre...ht=abs+release

From the thread...
The Event;

For me I experience what seems like a full loss of brakes for up to two car lengths. This occurs;

- on a dry road
- when not braking hard out
- when braking in a straight line
- when there is no chance of rear wheel lift off
- when there is no chance of a slide
- I hit a small bump or dip the size of a catseye
- while holding the braking lever and decelerating the ABS system takes over and releases the brakes for up to two car lengths before re-applying them, while I'm still holding the brake lever.

I believe;
- this will injure or kill a rider.
- is unsafe and needs to be fixed.

If you are too hard on the rear brake, the bike releases for a short time and re-engages. This is not the problem.


Not sure why BMW have these problems with their ABS, they've been doing ABS longer than anyone and you don't hear complaints from other brands about this kind of free wheeling. For the record I'm not a BMW hater, owned and rode an R1200RT with the really hated servo brakes but never had a problem with them in 34,000kms and that bike would stop quicker than anything I've ever owned.
I want to stress, again, I'm just trying to learn here.

Why would a wheel leaving the ground as you suggest (and which I can certainly believe) cause the ABS to kick in - if the wheel is still rotating, why would the ABS think the brakes need applying ?
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Old 10-07-2011, 03:32 PM   #8873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema in Paluda View Post
A good ABS doesn't need any figuring, just hit the front brake, and the bike decellerates, perhaps not always as fast as you could stop it yourself if you regularly train, but in a controlled manner, but watch out a good ABS willlet you make a stoppy on most bikes, so you still have to be alert when riding.
Some ABSses have implemented an anti-stoppy algorithm, that prevents the lifting of the rear wheel alltogether, but that has the nasty effect that if the rear wheel is bumped around by the underground, the anti-stoppy system will prevent any decelleration,becaus the "logic" thinks the rear wheel skids. Edog has posted a hilaious vid about suchs a ABS working.

And beware to let the ABS do its work its essential to not (over)use your rear brake, then most ABSses will get triggered very easily by taht, and give the rider false signals on the rear brake, and most will instictivly loosen up the front grip, long before the ABS thinks thefront locks.

So in any panic braking (if your not riding a battlecruiser or 2wheeled car) just use the front, and grab the clutch, and leave the rear wheel spinning, it wil stabilise the bike, and the ABS will stop almost any bike way faster with only the front applied than most bikers dare to brake at all...
Thanks

Now, if you ONLY hit the front OR rear brake, will the ABS still kick in ? If so, will the ABS ONLY pulse the brake being applied or BOTH brakes ? I assume (but we know how that goes) it will work on either brake on its own and will only pulse the brake being applied but I really don't know for sure.
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Old 10-07-2011, 04:08 PM   #8874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
Thanks

Now, if you ONLY hit the front OR rear brake, will the ABS still kick in ? If so, will the ABS ONLY pulse the brake being applied or BOTH brakes ? I assume (but we know how that goes) it will work on either brake on its own and will only pulse the brake being applied but I really don't know for sure.
Yes to the first question and only the brake being applied for the second question (at least that's how Triumph does it). Other manufacturers may implement ABS differently and linked brakes may introduce further complication.

Next time you are riding your Tiger and just rolling along, just stand on the rear brake pedal real hard. ABS kicks in for the rear to keep it from locking, front wheel keeps rolling normally. The system is split just as the brakes are split.
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:25 PM   #8875
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My altrider order for the ROX Risers already shipped. That's same day shipping pretty good!!
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Old 10-07-2011, 05:28 PM   #8876
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercury264 View Post
I want to stress, again, I'm just trying to learn here.

Why would a wheel leaving the ground as you suggest (and which I can certainly believe) cause the ABS to kick in - if the wheel is still rotating, why would the ABS think the brakes need applying ?
I don't think any of the bikes we're discussing have linked brakes, so I believe it is safe to say that if they are only pressing the front or rear brake lever -ABS will only be active on that respective wheel.

Why does a wheel bouncing off the ground confuse ABS sometimes? The purpose of ABS is to stop the wheel from unexpectedly locking up. It does this by releasing the brakes if the wheel comes to an unexpected stop. If the braking wheel happens to momentarily bounce into the air, it can suddenly stop spinning -this will appear to the ABS system as a skid and it will activate the ABS system and cause the brakes on that wheel to release. Like it or not, at that instant, you have lost your brakes.

That help? My apologies if it doesn't -I am 28 hours post surgery and drugged to the gills.

Redne

PS: Obligatory Triumph content: I like them.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:40 PM   #8877
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Originally Posted by Ks_Gman View Post
Greetings fbj. Just reading through this mammoth thread, getting close to pulling the trigger on an 800xc. I noticed your location, and also your V-Strom experience, we have both of these things in common...hopefully soon one more thing!

I'm actually in the Olathe area. I'm a single track guy by nature, but tried the VStrom and sort of found it lacking. Great road bike, just scary everywhere else. Had a 640 E for awhile, boy do I regret letting that go. Spend most of my riding time on my KTM 300.

That said, I'm hoping to add the Tiger to the garage.

Curious, did you buy local (KC)? Ever do any two-up riding? Wife has taken a bit of interest in riding lately.

GW.
I bought my R100GS from Engle's (BMW & Triumph dealer) in '91. They were good folks back then. I don't live in the KC area now and haven't been in the shop for a few years so I can't really vouch for them now, but over the years they've been good about getting parts to me in the mail in a timely fashion.

I test rode a Tiger 800 street (and a Bonneville and a Scrambler) at the dealer in Eldorado Springs, MO. I haven't bought anything from them yet, but they're pretty nice folks if you don't mind the drive.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:28 AM   #8878
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Originally Posted by Redne Dab View Post
I don't think any of the bikes we're discussing have linked brakes, so I believe it is safe to say that if they are only pressing the front or rear brake lever -ABS will only be active on that respective wheel.

Why does a wheel bouncing off the ground confuse ABS sometimes? The purpose of ABS is to stop the wheel from unexpectedly locking up. It does this by releasing the brakes if the wheel comes to an unexpected stop. If the braking wheel happens to momentarily bounce into the air, it can suddenly stop spinning -this will appear to the ABS system as a skid and it will activate the ABS system and cause the brakes on that wheel to release. Like it or not, at that instant, you have lost your brakes.

That help? My apologies if it doesn't -I am 28 hours post surgery and drugged to the gills.

Redne

PS: Obligatory Triumph content: I like them.
I thought all ABS brake systems are linked. That's what makes them effective, right? Not unlike AWD drive systems distributing traction.

I've never ridden a bike with ABS, but I sure can't see using ABS on dirt roads... Loose or steep downhills and such. Too often I feel like I have to modulate the brake on one wheel or the other for the desired effect. Even approaching a dirt or gravel apex too fast...sometimes to get the thing turned, you have to slide the back out. You do that with the rear brake, or gearbox, or both.

Can anybody tell me how heavy the Tri 800 is? I've read all kinds of weights. I think I'm going to try and test ride one today. Maybe the BMW 800 too. Thanks.
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Pantah screwed with this post 10-08-2011 at 05:37 AM
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:49 AM   #8879
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Originally Posted by Pantah View Post
I thought all ABS brake systems are linked. That's what makes them effective, right? Not unlike AWD drive systems distributing traction.

I've never ridden a bike with ABS, but I sure can't see using ABS on dirt roads... Loose or steep downhills and such. Too often I feel like I have to modulate the brake on one wheel or the other for the desired effect. Even approaching a dirt or gravel apex too fast...sometimes to get the thing turned, you have to slide the back out. You do that with the rear brake, or gearbox, or both.

Can anybody tell me how heavy the Tri 800 is? I've read all kinds of weights. I think I'm going to try and test ride one today. Maybe the BMW 800 too. Thanks.
Weight is 210Kg with all fluids (800). The XC is slightly heavier at 215Kg.
ABS only intervenes on a wheel that is skidding.
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:01 AM   #8880
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I I test rode a Tiger 800 street (and a Bonneville and a Scrambler) at the dealer in Eldorado Springs, MO. I haven't bought anything from them yet, but they're pretty nice folks if you don't mind the drive.
I agree 100%, I bought my VStrom from them.
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