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Old 03-08-2011, 10:10 AM   #211
DRONE
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But did they tell you what happened to Chef Eddie?

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They did not. They told us that the local Search & Rescue had to be called out, but we'd have to buy the DVD to get the particulars.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:37 AM   #212
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Not a GPS geek

I'm not a GPS geek, so I'm not certain exactly what I've done here. I've created a .gpx route for my Zumo 450 from Oregon to Canada (one single route) that follows the same roads as the WABDR but only has 41 waypoints. There is a problem with it, though, because it deviates from the WABDR in several places. The 6-segment WABDR has 2815 waypoints. My route covers 2761 of those waypoints but then detours around 54 waypoints.

The only software available to me is RoadTrip. Maybe somebody with more powerful software can fix my .gpx file. I've attached the file to this post.

I also looked at the route posted by LTCOliverNorth at Post 166. He created a 6-segment version of the WABDR with a total of 1082 waypoints. Clearly, this is a different approach than mine (one route vs. six routes; 41 waypoints vs. 1082 waypoints). Like I said in the 1st paragraph, I'm not a GPS geek so I'm not certain what I've done here.

I guess I have two questions then, both for Zumo geeks-- (1) Will my .gpx route actually work in my Zumo if I ride to the starting point then tell the Zumo "GO!"? and (2) can somebody fix my .gpx file to include the missing 54 waypoints?

My intention is eventually to have a "perfect" .gpx route for Zumo users that I can send to the WABDR website so they can add it to their list of route downloads.
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File Type: gpx DRONE WABDR.gpx (850.9 KB, 64 views)

DRONE screwed with this post 03-10-2011 at 07:13 PM
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:56 AM   #213
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At the South Sound BMW presentation, they told us that they fully expected guys like us to start posting up changes or alternates or improvements to their route. In that spirit, the WABDR follows Rt. 12 for 38 miles from Packwood to the start of Bethel Ridge Road (FR-1500). When I'm going that way, I prefer to take the Tieton Reservoir Road (FR 1200) along the south side of Rimrock Lake. 16-mile half-loop around the lake that's slower paced and prettier. It's a paved road, so you don't get more dirt by going that way, but way easier to stop and look at Rimrock Lake, or go swimming, or take pics than if you stay on Rt. 12.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:36 PM   #214
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Drone,

Thanks for that Rimrock tip. I'll add it to my routing.

Timmer

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At the South Sound BMW presentation, they told us that they fully expected guys like us to start posting up changes or alternates or improvements to their route. In that spirit, the WABDR follows Rt. 12 for 38 miles from Packwood to the start of Bethel Ridge Road (FR-1500). When I'm going that way, I prefer to take the Tieton Reservoir Road (FR 1200) along the south side of Rimrock Lake. 16-mile half-loop around the lake that's slower paced and prettier. It's a paved road, so you don't get more dirt by going that way, but way easier to stop and look at Rimrock Lake, or go swimming, or take pics than if you stay on Rt. 12.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:02 AM   #215
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I haven't looked at drone's file yet, but I'm thinking that the WABDR might have a few segments that are routed off road (point to point). Can anybody confirm if that's correct?

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Originally Posted by DRONE View Post
I'm not a GPS geek, so I'm not certain exactly what I've done here. I've created a .gpx route for my Zumo 450 from Oregon to Canada (one single route) that follows the same roads as the WABDR but only has 41 waypoints. There is a problem with it, though, because it deviates from the WABDR in several places. The 6-segment WABDR has 2815 waypoints. My route covers 2761 of those waypoints but then detours around 54 waypoints.

The only software available to me is RoadTrip. Maybe somebody with more powerful software can fix my .gpx file. I've attached the file to this post.

I also looked at the route posted by LTCOliverNorth at Post 166. He created a 6-segment version of the WABDR with a total of 1082 waypoints. Clearly, this is a different approach than mine (one route vs. six routes; 41 waypoints vs. 1082 waypoints). Like I said in the 1st paragraph, I'm not a GPS geek so I'm not certain what I've done here.

I guess I have two questions then, both for Zumo geeks-- (1) Will my .gpx route actually work in my Zumo if I ride to the starting point then tell the Zumo "GO!"? and (2) can somebody fix my .gpx file to include the missing 54 waypoints?

My intention is eventually to have a "perfect" .gpx route for Zumo users that I can send to the WABDR website so they can add it to their list of route downloads.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:53 AM   #216
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Navigating the WABDR using a GPS - Part 1

Navigating the WABDR using a GPS - Part 1
-Basic definitions and limitations


The WABDR covers some sections of roads that Garmin's maps don't have a record of. Because of that fact the trip is being distributed as a TRACK LOG.

A TRACK LOG is made up of hundreds of tightly spaced data points "dots", each dot is a lat/lon position and the trip connects the dots with straight lines. This format makes for larger file sizes but no map data is needed to follow a track log. This type of navigation is commonly used with marine and aviation applications where there aren't roads to follow.

A ROUTE is a series of waypoints in order (1, 2, 3, etc) that the GPS draws it's own line between using the map data that is loaded into the unit. This format allows for much smaller file sizes over long distances but if the map data for roads isn't perfect, the route is wrong. This type of navigation is used for automobile travel where reliable road data is available.

"Road oriented" GPS units like the Zumo 450/550 and many of the Nuvi units do not have the ability to navigate using track logs with many (more than 50ish) "dots". They are limited to using routes to navigate which don't work well when traveling through places with less than perfect map data. There are a few work-arounds to use a these units on this trip but they still don't work 100% (more on that later).

GPS units that are designed for offroad use such as the GPSmap 60CSx and GPSmap 267C do a much better job of using TRACK LOGS to navigate because they are intended to be used in places without reliable map data. Other new units like the 62, 78, and Zumo 660/665 have been updated by Garmin to use track logs like the off-road units.


-Iain
----------

Part 2 will address the common work arounds for the Zumo 450/550 and Nuvi units and the challenges they present. (coming soon)
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:06 AM   #217
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Good post, Iain. Thanks for clarifying for the users.

Tim

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Originally Posted by 88NX250 View Post
Navigating the WABDR using a GPS - Part 1
-Basic definitions and limitations


The WABDR covers some sections of roads that Garmin's maps don't have a record of. Because of that fact the trip is being distributed as a TRACK LOG.

A TRACK LOG is made up of hundreds of tightly spaced data points "dots", each dot is a lat/lon position and the trip connects the dots with straight lines. This format makes for larger file sizes but no map data is needed to follow a track log. This type of navigation is commonly used with marine and aviation applications where there aren't roads to follow.

A ROUTE is a series of waypoints in order (1, 2, 3, etc) that the GPS draws it's own line between using the map data that is loaded into the unit. This format allows for much smaller file sizes over long distances but if the map data for roads isn't perfect, the route is wrong. This type of navigation is used for automobile travel where reliable road data is available.

"Road oriented" GPS units like the Zumo 450/550 and many of the Nuvi units do not have the ability to navigate using track logs with many (more than 50ish) "dots". They are limited to using routes to navigate which don't work well when traveling through places with less than perfect map data. There are a few work-arounds to use a these units on this trip but they still don't work 100% (more on that later).

GPS units that are designed for offroad use such as the GPSmap 60CSx and GPSmap 267C do a much better job of using TRACK LOGS to navigate because they are intended to be used in places without reliable map data. Other new units like the 62, 78, and Zumo 660/665 have been updated by Garmin to use track logs like the off-road units.


-Iain
----------

Part 2 will address the common work arounds for the Zumo 450/550 and Nuvi units and the challenges they present. (coming soon)
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:16 AM   #218
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Wow! This is great info! Thx

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88NX250 View Post
Navigating the WABDR using a GPS - Part 1
-Basic definitions and limitations


The WABDR covers some sections of roads that Garmin's maps don't have a record of. Because of that fact the trip is being distributed as a TRACK LOG.

A TRACK LOG is made up of hundreds of tightly spaced data points "dots", each dot is a lat/lon position and the trip connects the dots with straight lines. This format makes for larger file sizes but no map data is needed to follow a track log. This type of navigation is commonly used with marine and aviation applications where there aren't roads to follow.

A ROUTE is a series of waypoints in order (1, 2, 3, etc) that the GPS draws it's own line between using the map data that is loaded into the unit. This format allows for much smaller file sizes over long distances but if the map data for roads isn't perfect, the route is wrong. This type of navigation is used for automobile travel where reliable road data is available.

"Road oriented" GPS units like the Zumo 450/550 and many of the Nuvi units do not have the ability to navigate using track logs with many (more than 50ish) "dots". They are limited to using routes to navigate which don't work well when traveling through places with less than perfect map data. There are a few work-arounds to use a these units on this trip but they still don't work 100% (more on that later).

GPS units that are designed for offroad use such as the GPSmap 60CSx and GPSmap 267C do a much better job of using TRACK LOGS to navigate because they are intended to be used in places without reliable map data. Other new units like the 62, 78, and Zumo 660/665 have been updated by Garmin to use track logs like the off-road units.


-Iain
----------

Part 2 will address the common work arounds for the Zumo 450/550 and Nuvi units and the challenges they present. (coming soon)
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:37 PM   #219
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Navigating the WABDR using a GPS Part 2

Navigating the WABDR using a GPS – Part 2
-Common workarounds for Zumo 450/550 and Nuvi


The track points in the official WABDR file are real lat/lon positions recorded during the pre-run. This is the only way to know where the roads really are on the ground.


The biggest problem we face with these units is that they are sold to people who want an EASY TO USE GPS unit. None of these workarounds are easy for a beginner to do on the computer or easy for a novice GPS user to manage in the field.


The BEST solution to this problem is to purchase a new GPS unit that will work well with track logs. The Garmin 60 and 76 units are the best option and can easily be mounted to the bike along with your existing Zumo 450/550 or Nuvi. ANY VERSION of the 60 or 76 will do the job, even the old gray screen versions (but the color screen is easier to read). If you are only using this GPS to follow track logs, you don't even need to have maps loaded in the unit. The more expensive but equally effective option is to buy a new Zumo 660/665 to replace your 450/550 or Nuvi unit.


I am not going to give step by step instructions for any of these workarounds because they will only cause unnecessary frustration for everyone.


The Route Method-
Using Mapsource on the computer, a user can place waypoints along the WABDR track log. When a route is created using the waypoints in the order chosen by the user, the computer draws a line along the roads that it thinks are the best way to connect the waypoints. This is what DRONE did and I am glad he made it available for us to use in this example. When the road data is perfect, this method works well but unfortunately, these remote roads are not 100% accurate in the Garmin software and you can see the result in his file. Some of the roads chosen by the computer unfortunately don't exist in real life.


The blue dotted line is the official WABDR track log, the pink line is the computer created route (where it thinks the roads are).







The “Off-Road” Route Method-
Using Mapsource on the computer, a user can place waypoints along the WABDR track log. An “off-road” route is then created by drawing a straight line between each waypoint. This produces a trip very similar to the track log but with a very decreased resolution. The downside to this workaround is that you only know the direction to your next waypoint, not where the road goes. If you next waypoint is 2 miles away, the road may take many turns before then. This system is the most common and works for short routes but over 600 miles the user is likely get lost many times. In order to increase the resolution, the user can create a series of many smaller routes but these will need to be cashed on a data card, imported, run, and deleted from the internal memory many times throughout the course of the trip. The GPS unit settings must be modified to use these “off-road” routes successfully.


The “Filtered Track” Method-
Using Mapsource on the computer, a user can open the WABDR track log and use the track properties tools to separate the track log into many smaller sections of ~50 “dots” each. These small sections can be put onto a data card and run in a very similar way as the “off-road route” method. This method is much quicker to set up on the computer side but it has the same problems when used in the field as the “off-road route” method.


AGAIN, the BEST solution is to purchase (new or used) a GPS that will use the original WABDR tracks provided. This will give you the best chance of not getting lost or having GPS worries overshadow what the WABDR has to offer.

-Iain

EDIT - It is important for me to add that many Zumo 450/550 users have used these workarounds succesfully for years but they are aware of the limitations and have taken extra precautions to make this work in the feild. (not the average "EASY" GPS user)

----------------------------------

Do we need a part 3? If so, what should I cover?
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:55 PM   #220
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This is what DRONE did and I am glad he made it available for us to use in this example. When the road data is perfect, this method works well but unfortunately, these remote roads are not 100% accurate in the Garmin software and you can see the result in his file. Some of the roads chosen by the computer unfortunately don't exist in real life.

The blue dotted line is the official WABDR track log, the pink line is the computer created route (where it thinks the roads are).



This is good stuff, Iain, but not exactly 100% descriptive of my problem. In both the maps shown above, my software shows the blue route, and shows it following a road! I can see the roads clearly on my desktop and on my Zumo screen. But when I try to drag the pink route over to the blue route, my software balks, even though there's a road there. (Those two maps above include over 40 of the 56 waypoints that I haven't been able to properly capture.) I'm sure it's just a software glitch involving an older version of RoadTrip, and almost certainly somebody with a BaseCamp or some other mapping program will be able to drag the pink over to the blue and fix it.

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Old 03-10-2011, 01:01 PM   #221
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I haven't looked at drone's file yet, but I'm thinking that the WABDR might have a few segments that are routed off road (point to point). Can anybody confirm if that's correct?
Not according to the maps I'm using. With both City Navigator 2009 and Topo U.S. 2008, all the waypoints on the WABDR are within 100 feet of a road. If you've ever used a GPS to follow a Forest Service road, then you know that 100 feet is pretty much a bullseye when you're out there in the woods. It's not like you're in the city anymore. If you're riding down a road, and your GPS says you're riding through the woods 100 feet from a road, then you can be pretty sure that there are not two roads 100 feet apart, or that your road has "migrated" 100 feet! No--you're on the road alright.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:14 PM   #222
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Here is a closer view of a few of these spots. The "software glitch" you are talking about can either be a break in where the GPS thinks the road is vs where it really is on the ground OR the road is shown on your GPS but Garmin has not made is an "auto routable" piece of road because they don't want the GPS to route on it. This could be becuase they don't know if the road goes through or becuase of some reason they have to not use the road automaticaly.

Close up of the first picture (notice the blue line travels where "there is no road" according to the software)




Closeup of the second picture (same issue as the above photo)




Third picture is just another example of the map software not being 100% perfect.




I can see in your file where you have created waypoints just off the route to try and bounce the calculation off of the road it is on.

What I am showing here in these pictures will likely be differnt from what you see on your screen becuase I am running a differnt Garmin Map software. The pink hilighted line does not follow the roads on my map exactly becuase it is calculated based on the data in your map program (Topo 100k or City Navigator).


-Iain
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:16 PM   #223
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Not according to the maps I'm using. With both City Navigator 2009 and Topo U.S. 2008, all the waypoints on the WABDR are within 100 feet of a road. If you've ever used a GPS to follow a Forest Service road, then you know that 100 feet is pretty much a bullseye when you're out there in the woods. It's not like you're in the city anymore. If you're riding down a road, and your GPS says you're riding through the woods 100 feet from a road, then you can be pretty sure that there are not two roads 100 feet apart, or that your road has "migrated" 100 feet! No--you're on the road alright.

Unfortunatly, even 100 feet is too much for the auto routing to overcome. You can't have a route in a Garmin unit that transitions from follow road to off-road and back again. This is a problem if our recorded tracks use an intersection that the GPS maps don't know about.

Edit - I forgot to add, thanks for the modification around the lake from Hwy 12. I am going to use your modification when I ride WABDR.
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Old 03-10-2011, 02:28 PM   #224
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Here is a closer view of a few of these spots. The "software glitch" you are talking about can either be a break in where the GPS thinks the road is vs where it really is on the ground OR the road is shown on your GPS but Garmin has not made is an "auto routable" piece of road because they don't want the GPS to route on it. This could be becuase they don't know if the road goes through or becuase
I ran into this on numerous occasions trying to use my Nuvi on the OBCDR last year. Is the only solution to use a GPS like the 76cs with track following capability? Is there any way to force the Zumo to follow the intended track, or do you just have to end the route there and make yourself a note(s) to get to the next waypoint that is the start of the next routable segment?

The nuvi was Super frustrating because there were numerous areas where I had roads that we touching in mapsource but not actually connected. SO I made a via point and named it "go left to point 23" or something, but the damned nuvi would constantly re-route on the fly and send me off some crazy detours. I'd be 20 feet from the next waypont and not no it cuz it already recalculated and wanted to send me back 5 miles to a 'missed' one.
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:03 PM   #225
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Xymotic,

When I'm following tracks like this, I turn off the "Recalculate" feature. Otherwise, like you , I'd go crazy.
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