Something I've always wondered...

[seraph]

Originally Posted by MiteyF

You're in Bellingham? Would I have seen you around town? If you see me holler, I'll be on the white DR350 most likely.

Or the red 2 stroke Kawi cafe

Or the blue/gray TL1000R

Or the flat black/red wheel bug

I think I need a bigger garage

Ah I'm not in the Ham anymore, I graduated from WWU in June and came back to the Tri-Cities. That bug definitely sounds familiar...

[MiteyF]

Originally Posted by seraph

Ah I'm not in the Ham anymore, I graduated from WWU in June and came back to the Tri-Cities. That bug definitely sounds familiar...

She was the daily driver for a few years, you very well may have seen her. I'm sorry you had to move back... I can't imagine going from beautiful Bellingham to the dry-shitties

[Photog]

Originally Posted by seraph

Vespa smallframe.

Kitted to within an inch of its life.



I gotta get me another 2-stroke shifty of some sort.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by MiteyF

It's always more fun to ride a slow bike (or car) fast, than vice versa.

But you can't understand why people drive kitted focuses or civics?

[gec343]

Originally Posted by MiteyF

First off, I'm not bashing on anyone, I honestly want to understand...

I've wondered this for a long time, and have to ask.

Why in the hell do people buy scooters?

My thoughts. Albeit these are sort of generalizations, for the most part from what I've found, they hold quite true. They accelerate slowly, and most brake poorly. They don't have the power to pull out of a turn. Without proper footpegs you don't have nearly the input from your weight to help corner. All of this adds up to make them DANGEROUS. In fact, I've ridden a few (mostly smaller ones) and can firmly say I will NEVER ride one in traffic. They just feel utterly SCARY. And I ride motorcycles every day, rain shine or snow.

Some say they ride them "for the gas mileage", but you can get just as good of mileage with a low cc motorcycle, and still have some speed, control and braking capability. Like a Ninja 250. 75+ miles to the gallon, and they can still lift the front tire with just the throttle and do 110 on the top end.

I've ridden dual sports, dirt bikes, sport bikes, cruisers, classics, and most things in between. And loved them all. Except scooters. The damn things just feel wrong.

So... why?

I'll always love scooters because at age 14, I developed my love of two wheels on a 1952 Alltstate (Cushman) scooter. After that, I bought a new 1958 Allstate Crusaire, which added an enormous amount of joy to my life. I believe that the day I bought my first scooter was the happiest day of my life. In a nutshell, that is why I love scooters!

[MiteyF]

Originally Posted by EvilGenius

But you can't understand why people drive kitted focuses or civics?

I just don't understand why you would want to spend a bunch of money making a slow car fast when you could make a fast car faster. For the same reason I wouldn't understand someone wanting to put go-fast parts on their scooter. It makes more sense to me to use that money to buy something that already performs. I've got a little 90cc 2 stroke cafe bike. It's slow, but fun because I can push it to it's limit. However, I'm not going to dump a whole bunch of money into it trying to make it faster. Because it would still be slow. And for the money I could buy something that's fast already.

Now, with that said, hauling ass around town in a STOCK commuter car, that's just good fun. But to dump a bunch of money into it and "kit" it out? Well that doesn't make any damn sense to me. In my mind, that's a huge waste of money.









But then again, I'm an aircooled VW guy with lots of musclecar friends, so many dismiss my opinions on cars

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by MiteyF

I just don't understand why you would want to spend a bunch of money making a slow car fast when you could make a fast car faster.

Because the slow car is cheaper initially, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to insure and more practical.

But there is a point where the amount spent is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

For the same reason I wouldn't understand someone wanting to put go-fast parts on their scooter. It makes more sense to me to use that money to buy something that already performs. I've got a little 90cc 2 stroke cafe bike. It's slow, but fun because I can push it to it's limit. However, I'm not going to dump a whole bunch of money into it trying to make it faster. Because it would still be slow. And for the money I could buy something that's fast already.....

.....But then again, I'm an aircooled VW guy with lots of musclecar friends, so many dismiss my opinions on cars

That's really an area applicable to the old two stroke vespas (which I think a lot of folks would compare to your VWs in why they like them) and the Tmax 500 than the regular scoots. The two strokes are competent little commuters, but throw a bigger jug on them and a pipe and they're a mean little bastard around town and some of the well modified ones will pop a wheely with the throttle alone on the freeway.

The Tmaxs are just a good performing big scooter.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

Now, with that said, hauling ass around town in a STOCK commuter car, that's just good fun.

This is why a lot of folks like the smaller displacement scooters, they're quick to accelerate, but aren't dangerously fast by any sense of the word. You can go balls out and sling them into turns haphazardly all the while having a blast without turning the seat brown.

Just ask Photog about her Super 8 and her Vento Zip.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

But to dump a bunch of money into it and "kit" it out? Well that doesn't make any damn sense to me.

I'm assuming when you say "kit" you mean cheap ass body kits and fart can exhausts. I can understand why most would see that, but I know folks who really knew how to make those cars shine, civics in particular.

I drive an '01 ZX3 focus 5spd, all stock except for the resonator box I took off the intake. Makes it sound nice without being stupid loud. It drives like a go cart with a back seat, stereo and ac. It's a straight blast to drive.

I used to have another one a few years ago, same model/year that I put about 2k worth of small modifications into and knocked about 1.5 seconds off of its time in the 8th mile. It was a lot more fun to drive than the one I have now and could seriously hold it's own against most of the other 4cyl cars out there.

I couldn't afford it at the time, but you can spend maybe 1.5-2K on the same car and slap on a super charger (commonly made for them) and have a 200-220hp 4cyl car that would match a lot of the common sport cars out there in acceleration and handling, yet carry a lot more crap in the back than any of them, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to insure, easier to work on, etc. etc. and I'm willing to bet have a lot more fun driving it too.

Same thing with some of my honda friends. They'd go out and buy a late 80s to early 90s civic for about $500-$800, slap on about $200 worth of suspension, drop a $800 integra motor with about $200 worth of mods on it and flat out spank V8 mustangs, camaros, firebirds, etc. both in acceleration and handling and still be cheaper to work on, maintain, insure, etc. etc. and I've never had more fun driving anything than my friend's stripped out '91 civic hatchback with a 180hp VTEC engine in it.

They're not super cars, but they're a hell of a lot more fun than the bland $40k-$80k sports cars that are all over the place today.

[redhandmoto]

Originally Posted by EvilGenius

but you can spend maybe 1.5-2K on the same car and slap on a super charger (commonly made for them) and have a 200-220hp 4cyl car that would match a lot of the common sport cars out there in acceleration and handling, yet carry a lot more crap in the back than any of them, cheaper to maintain, cheaper to insure, easier to work on, etc. etc. and I'm willing to bet have a lot more fun driving it too.

Same thing with some of my honda friends. They'd go out and buy a late 80s to early 90s civic for about $500-$800, slap on about $200 worth of suspension, drop a $800 integra motor with about $200 worth of mods on it and flat out spank V8 mustangs, camaros, firebirds, etc. both in acceleration and handling and still be cheaper to work on, maintain, insure, etc. etc. and I've never had more fun driving anything than my friend's stripped out '91 civic hatchback with a 180hp VTEC engine in it.

They're not super cars, but they're a hell of a lot more fun than the bland $40k-$80k sports cars that are all over the place today.

Heh. Shame on me for helping the drift into irrelevancy but i must agree wholeheartedly.

i have done this, and it is a true joy. A very ordinary and older small german sedan that was already parti-colored with mismatched doors and panels: chipped it, improved the intake/exhaust stream, stiffened the suspension, replaced this-and-that until it just screamed, and shocked the living crap out of casual challengers.

Now I am doing the same with an amped Zuma 125.
Sleepers ftw. No greater fun.

[Warney]

[quote=MiteyF]A tiny one without a centrif clutch of course And it would have to be 2 stroke

Fairly certain you aren't worthy but her name is Stella, as in Genuine Stella. The last of the 2T are here now, it's the end of the line. Even though you've ridden "Dual Sports, Dirt Bikes, Cruisers, Classics, and most things in between" you'll look and ride like a rookie first time out.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by Warney

Fairly certain you aren't worthy but her name is Stella, as in Genuine Stella. The last of the 2T are here now, it's the end of the line. Even though you've ridden "Dual Sports, Dirt Bikes, Cruisers, Classics, and most things in between" you'll look and ride like a rookie first time out.

They say the new 4Ts are supposed to be peppier, but I dunno how they stand up to the modded 2T crowd.

[Photog]

Originally Posted by Warney

you'll look and ride like a rookie first time out.

OMG yes.

a kitted 2-stroke will give you religion or at least permagrin.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=60

from this thread

I have a more succinct description somewhere else...can't find it...it went something like, "Wheeeeee!.......oooooohhhhhh shit shit....OMG....wheeee!....damn.....AIEEEEE!!!!!... .wtf?.....oh, I skipped 2nd again.....WHEEE!!!!!"

After I got used to it, it wasn't quite so crazy, but the first time I got on it in traffic and gave the throttle a good twist, I just about climbed up the back of the minivan in front of me...so I darted to one side....and found out about the 10" wheels....

Most fun bike I've ever had, and I've had a lot of fun bikes.

[Warney]

When you are on a Stella, it's all good.

[MiteyF]

That's always what the tuner guys say. "Well all I have to do is put a turbo on my Civic and it will spank your muscle car!" No fuckin shit. Put a turbo on said muscle car, and it will spank the Civic! It's a 2 sided coin guys. There are plenty of older RWD cars that can be had for a song, with maintenance to match.

I've got a buddy with an 89 (87 maybe?) 4 door Civic. Ugly ass steelie wheels and nasty original brown paint. But it runs mid 9's in the quarter. It's mind boggling. With that said, it's completely and utterly retarded. There's gobs of money into it (not compared to many drag cars I suppose) but all he does is blow transmissions and ruin axles and the like.

And of course there's something to be said about FWD. Don't get me wrong, they do some things great. Slick conditions, packaging etc. But if you're looking for any kind of real performance, you can't ask the front wheels to do both the steering and the power delivery.

Oh, and I was joking about the scooter... they still feel really... wrong to me. It's a footpeg thing I've already got a 2 stroke "scooter". Better mileage than most real scooters, more lean angle, and she still does 65ish... just more my cup o' tea.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by MiteyF

That's always what the tuner guys say. "Well all I have to do is put a turbo on my Civic and it will spank your muscle car!" No fuckin shit. Put a turbo on said muscle car, and it will spank the Civic! It's a 2 sided coin guys. There are plenty of older RWD cars that can be had for a song, with maintenance to match.

You still don't get it, that muscle car is stupidly more expensive than the turbo/supercharged civic and a hell of a lot less useful.

With the civic that runs just a fast and handles just as well as the muscle car, will still get better mileage being flogged all day and can carry all the groceries, bags of fertilizer, etc. etc. you want at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

I've got a buddy with an 89 (87 maybe?) 4 door Civic. Ugly ass steelie wheels and nasty original brown paint. But it runs mid 9's in the quarter. It's mind boggling. With that said, it's completely and utterly retarded. There's gobs of money into it (not compared to many drag cars I suppose) but all he does is blow transmissions and ruin axles and the like.

Sounds like he didn't spend the money right.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

And of course there's something to be said about FWD. Don't get me wrong, they do some things great. Slick conditions, packaging etc. But if you're looking for any kind of real performance, you can't ask the front wheels to do both the steering and the power delivery.

Like I've already said, they're not super cars, but with modern FWD suspension and traction setups, if you limit the engine to about 230hp it'll give you every bit of performance you'll ever need in real life and will still handle as well as the average sports car.

Originally Posted by MiteyF

Oh, and I was joking about the scooter... they still feel really... wrong to me. It's a footpeg thing I've already got a 2 stroke "scooter". Better mileage than most real scooters, more lean angle, and she still does 65ish... just more my cup o' tea.

You can get foot pegs for the vespas.

[MiteyF]

No, YOU still don't get it. A good rear wheel drive car can be had for just as cheap as a Civic if you look. Maybe not brand new, but there's really no reason to buy a brand new car unless you're trying to prove your affluence, or have more money than you know what to do with. And it doesn't have to be a "muscle car", just a well rounded RWD something-or-other with a trunk, and it will be just as useful as a Civic. By the time you put a few grand into a Civic to make it fast, it will now be on the same level as if you had bought a slightly faster car to begin with... but less reliable, because you put a whole bunch of shit on it that wasn't meant to be there! And then when resale time comes around, you'll never get that money back. You've got depreciation, along with all that cash you spent to make it "fast". Whereas with a stock, slightly faster car, all you have lost is the depreciation.

As for the buddy with the drag Civic... there's not a whole lot you can do to build a COMMUTER car into a RACE car. There aren't a whole lot of options for driveline parts. Probably because people know better than to waste that kind of money on a car meant for middle age middle class guys to drive to work in.

On a side note, who knows what the word "civic" means?

And as for footpegs on a Vespa... isn't that like trying to turn a Civic into a race car? No matter what you do, at the end of the day, it's still a commuter car (or in this case a scooter). You'll never turn a Vespa into a motorcycle just like you'll never turn a motorcycle into a Vespa. Or a Civic into a proper race car. Or a race car into a commuter car.