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Old 11-04-2010, 05:04 PM   #31
twodollardoug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
Overlap is when both sensor ciruits are working at the same time. The only recomendation I have for tuning it is to let a trained tuner with a quality dyno handle that task. You can't "sense" when the AF is correct, you need to measure it... under load.



.
oh, so its an air fuel thing... not a timing issue.
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:06 PM   #32
teti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
For anyone wishing to try the TuneECU software, but unwilling to build the custom cable, I'll be building several that will be available to buy. Cost will be $30 plus USPS shipping. I don't make money on these, just want to help the TuneECU project take hold. This will also include the ODB-II cable as pictured below.

If you're interested please send me a PM with your shipping address. I'll respond with the total price.






.
Hello, to see if we can understand English management it with on-line translator and fairly difficult

with this connection more TUNEECU could modify my bike power curve? and do with it what q I want or need? also delete the ECU failures?
Besides register other element data electronic if you are in operation (lambda e.g. tube), q likeness has q provides official consecionarios KTM, which is more convenient?

thanks and greetings atte

--------------------------------------------------------------

hola , a ver si nos podemos entender , ingles lo manejo con traductor on line y bastante dificultoso ,

con esta conexion mas el programa de TUNEECU pudo modificar la curva de potencia de mi moto ? y hacer con ella lo q quiero o necesito ? ademas de borrar fallas en la ECU ?
ademas registrar datos de los demas elemento electronicos si estan en buen funcionamiento ( sonda lambda ej.) , q semejanza tiene con el q provee los consecionarios oficiales KTM , cual es mas conveniente ?

gracias y saludos atte
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Old 11-04-2010, 05:08 PM   #33
PowerCell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teti
Hello, to see if we can understand English management it with on-line translator and fairly difficult...

http://www.tomhamburg.net/


Scroll to the bottom, pick a language...



.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:03 PM   #34
jetpoweredmonkey OP
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Hey PowerCell, sounds like you have been around the block a few times working with the ECU software. I wonder if you know anything about the secondary butterflies setting. I have read posts from folks who have removed these altogether in an effort to cure this or that problem - this just seems like a bodge to me.

I can see the secondaries acting like the slide in a CV carb in order to keep the air velocity in the throat of the throttle body high. On my bike with a stock map, it feels decidedly as though the secondaries open late, causing a big hesitation. Noise abatement? I have to imagine that the "open" map clears this up, based on what others have written, but I won't know until I try it. I guess you could map all of the secondary settings to 100% in order to keep them open and achieve the same effect as removing them. This also seems kinda like a bodge, the exact same bodge, actually.

Then again, there are plenty of EFI bikes with only one set of user-controlled butterflies that run great. Maybe the secondaries are all about emissions?

Anyway, where I'm going with this is your experience with creating maps on a dyno (or watching someone do it, whichever)...seems like the dyno is typically used to find A/F ratios at WOT to correct for open pipes, etc. Great, but I wonder if your dyno guy is also able to tune at part throttle openings and low to mid RPM, which is in my opinion where the 990 needs all the help. Refining that part of the map would be huge.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:14 PM   #35
PowerCell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetpoweredmonkey
Anyway, where I'm going with this is your experience with creating maps on a dyno (or watching someone do it, whichever)...seems like the dyno is typically used to find A/F ratios at WOT to correct for open pipes, etc. Great, but I wonder if your dyno guy is also able to tune at part throttle openings and low to mid RPM, which is in my opinion where the 990 needs all the help. Refining that part of the map would be huge.

Tuning with a dyno allows you to trim fuel for the entire RPM range...

Secondaries are soley for noise control... period.

FI systems don't require high intake velocities through the throttle bodies... there are no venturies.


.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:21 PM   #36
Gluaisrothaí
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Not just for noise, PC. Secondaries are also used for power restriction. Take a look at the French market Supermoto map, or compare the 990A to the 990R map secondary position table to see how it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
Tuning with a dyno allows you to trim fuel for the entire RPM range...

Secondaries are soley for noise control... period.

FI systems don't require high intake velocities through the throttle bodies... there are no venturies.


.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:24 PM   #37
PowerCell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gluaisrothaí
Not just for noise, PC. Secondaries are also used for power restriction. Take a look at the French market Supermoto map, or compare the 990A to the 990R map secondary position table to see how it works.

The only reason you pull the power back is to control noise... again, period.



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Old 11-04-2010, 11:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
FI systems don't require high intake velocities through the throttle bodies... there are no venturies.
Good point. How about your maps, have you just gone to 100% on the secondaries all the time (or removed them)?
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:26 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetpoweredmonkey
Good point. How about your maps, have you just gone to 100% on the secondaries all the time (or removed them)?

Mine have been removed, shafts and all...


.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:30 PM   #40
Gluaisrothaí
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Eh no. Noise reduction might be a by-product of a regulatory requirement to reduce power for the French market, or the marketing requirement to differentiate the -A from the -R in horsepower terms. Period.

Why don't you review the maps and look at where the secondaries differ in position? Noise regs are focused at 2/3 gears at relatively low RPMs. The secondaries rein in HP at high RPM and close to WOT on both the '09 and '10 ADV-A and the French market Supermoto.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
The only reason you pull the power back is to control noise... again, period.



.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:34 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
Mine have been removed, shafts and all...
Thanks again, man. Great info.

Did you get your ECU mapped at Moto GP Werkes? Seems to me I read a post somewhere about someone raving about that shop. I am going to scout around and see if I can find a tuner a little bit closer to home first. Now that I don't have to spend the cash on a Tuneboy, maybe I'll spring for the dyno...
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:37 PM   #42
PowerCell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gluaisrothaí
Eh no. Noise reduction might be a by-product of a regulatory requirement to reduce power for the French market, or the marketing requirement to differentiate the -A from the -R in horsepower terms. Period...

OK, I'm tiring of this. Firstly, you don't reduce power on an FI engine by restricting air supply. You just pull back timing and fuel. Simple...

Secondly, I have looked at every map. I have them all...

Lastly, I'm going to pass my FI crown on to you now. So all questions regarding FI I now leave for you to answer... I'll stick to tuning my bike and getting all these cables built. Good luck my friend, this thread is now yours...



.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:37 PM   #43
tmex
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The main issue has nothing to do with the map. If it did, KTM would have fixed it long ago. There is no secondary air metering circuit for low speed operation which makes transitions from low RPM (idle) to mid throttle very lean and the bike stumbles. KTM controls idle air flow by keeping the primary butterflies cracked open. Simple calculus shows that the increase in airflow from a partially cracked condition to a more open position increases the area for air to flow very quickly. My speculation is that the injectors cannot respond rapidly enough to this condition and if they could the bike would react like a pogo stick.

BTW, I own four KTM's. So I am not bagging on the brand.
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Old 11-05-2010, 07:23 AM   #44
cyborg
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Oh yeah, cool
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Old 11-05-2010, 08:21 AM   #45
Gluaisrothaí
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerCell
OK, I'm tiring of this. Firstly, you don't reduce power on an FI engine by restricting air supply. You just pull back timing and fuel. Simple...

Secondly, I have looked at every map. I have them all...

Lastly, I'm going to pass my FI crown on to you now. So all questions regarding FI I now leave for you to answer... I'll stick to tuning my bike and getting all these cables built. Good luck my friend, this thread is now yours...



.
Now that you have them all, try comparing the secondary throttle tables. You'll note that on the restricted maps I referenced, the secondaries begin to close at high RPM and WOT. Suppose you give me another reason than power restriction that you might want to do that at WOT where noise regs don't apply?


It's not that I don't want to learn, on the contrary- I'm interested in your theory of how reducing volumetric efficiency through intake restriction is not a way of reducing power in an IC engine, given that that is exactly what the primary throttle plate does. Or a dirty air filter etc.

Finishing a technical debate with "I'm tiring of this" smacks of someone who needs to be right in every situation BTW. This forum should encourage debate rather than outright assertions of "I'm right, you're wrong, it's my ball and I'm going home" when you meet a challenge. I'm not asking for the FI crown; with my engineering hat on I'm assessing the data available and drawing a different conclusion than you are on a point where you made what I believe to be an incorrect assertion.


BTW I run the -R map in my '09 990. Tuneboy install. I'm looking forward to the extra functionality of the Tuneecu program.
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