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Old 02-07-2011, 03:57 PM   #436
lc8john
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Hi Killer Whale KTM,

If I were you I would take the bike to a dealer for a ECU flash.
As other folks stated here, my best bet is that you have a defective ECU unit.
It is very awkward your inability to re-flash it with TuneEcu.
Can you plug into your bike a friends ECU just to check the bike behavior and compare both ECUs readings?
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:00 PM   #437
grinns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer Whale KTM View Post
Hi Guy's,
I have backfiring in my rear cylinder at idle and low rpm.I hooked up the bike to TuneECU, had the airbox open , then adjusted and ran it. It's not running well. I have no idea how to copy the TuneECU charts but here is what mine reads. I have a 07 990 with fmf mufflers and am running the akro map ( I can't change it for some reason)
off the diagnostics screen;
Ignition impulse 2.0 2.0 at rest
2.48 2.7 running
Manifold pressure
3.47 3.48 at rest
changes wildly while running
Throttle
14.3% 0.60 idle/ 3.69 wide open 0% 0% 0.85 at rest
same 1.00 running idle 0000 2.85v 0.93v at rest
1450 3.04 3.04 running
Ignition
12.0 12.0 at rest
2.0 2.0 running
On the test screen
cyl #1 957 cyl #2 958 at rest

cyl #1 364-373 cyl#2 383-393 running

I can't determine what all of these numbers mean. I read all of the posts and the instructions down loaded from TuneECU. Can anybody tell me which of these numbers is off ? I have NO air leaks in my throttle bodys.What causes a backfire ? To much fuel ? Poorly timed spark ? Why only the rear cylinder ? Could my valves have been set wrong ? or Am I out of adjustment somewhere ?
On the test screen, cyl #1 and #2 (957 and 958 )is my throttle body adjustment right ? And the TPS are my 0.60 at rest and 3.69 wide open right ?
If i'm in adjustment then something else must be wrong. Above 5500rpm it runs normal. Below that sucks. The last time I rode 4500 to 5500 had NOTHING- then at 5500 or so it would take off. Now it dosen't even idle very well. I'm losing my mind.........can someone give me a hand ?
Thanks for your time,
Killer Whale KTM
Jeff
The manifold pressure shouldn't be changing a lot. It still sounds like a vacuum leak to me(or partially clogged vacuum line). If you don't have a map sensor flagged it may not be wiring, but I would double check.

If the map sensor is really erratic it will be changing timing and fueling. Like it was doing with mine. If its on one cylinder then its really going to do wacky stuff, since each cylinder has its own map.

Maybe we can talk on the phone later this week or weekend and go over your tuneecu settings and stuff. Try to figure out the downloading maps problem first.

If you move the FL switch so its running on throttle position only and it runs smooth. I think it will point to those map sensors. You need to be able to load a map though. I wouldn't leave it like this or go far.
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Old 02-07-2011, 10:15 PM   #438
Head2Wind
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Hey KillerWhale,

Just a heads up, I went through your old EFI pump assembly... I suggest that if you have not done this already, have someone (or your self) remove the injectors and send them off to a company (RC Engineering is one for example) for cleaning and balancing, possibly to someone that can do spray pattern analysis. Your filters were both dirty, but the major issue was that the final filter (fine) was completely fallen apart. My guess is it may be related to fuel cleaners or something like that... or maybe it was a bad filter, who knows... However, what that means is that any debris in the fuel or bits coming off the filter as it failed will be at the injectors, which is bad.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:09 AM   #439
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Quote:
)Hook up to TuneECU ,get green light.
2)go to open map file
3)open proper map (07-990 Now is km601AK0704501 want to load km601US0704501 )
4)Hit download
After the warning about harming my ECU, I hit OK then, my green light flashes red a few times then I get the "not compatible with ECU" Message !?
Am I missing something ?? It worked before !!
Please someone tell me I'm not going crazy !!
You might try doing a hard reset of the ECU.Unplug your computer and shut it down.Disconnect the bikes battery for at least 10 minutes and start over.I work with automotive computers and scan tools quite a bit and sometimes I find the ECU will get confused from all the wrong buttons I have pushed and it locks up.The hard reset will usually free it up.

May not help,but its worth a shot.


What kind of readings are you getting from the o2s at various rpm levels?

Normal operation they should be switching between .02 to .08

Remember they have to warm up before getting a good reading.
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Old 02-08-2011, 09:04 AM   #440
Killer Whale KTM
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Guy's,
Thank you so much for your replies !
All of your suggestions are good. The ecu unplug and the re flash are probably the easiest, while finding someone to check the injectors, the hardest. So I will probably go in that order. I would LOVE to borrow an ecu for a minute because that will immediately tell us if it is a mechanical issue or an electronic one which would be HUGE right now !
Head, since you are looking at my old fuel pump,your thoughts seem very appropriate. It would explain a lot of things. I really like to have an understanding of WHY things happen or are what they are. However at this point....I just want my mean machine back !!
Grinns, thank you again for the offer. I actually tried to call yesterday. Was that you that called back last night ? I'm really sorry I didn't put 2 and 2 together !!
I was not myself though ! I had on 4 layers of clothes and a blanket sitting by the fireplace shivering !! My throat was so sore !!! Even ice water was killing me ! I slept until 10 am this morning. I haven't done that in many years !! I'm feeling a lot better today and might work on the KTM a little bit.
Thanks again to all,
a sick Killer Whale KTM
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:08 AM   #441
the octopus
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I've done my best to look around for the answer to this, so my apologies if this is redundant.

Has anyone been successful in datalogging? Either with the stock NB sensors or the WB sensors. An Innovate Motorsports OT-2 should, in theory, be able to obtain requisite data for map value modulations in LogWorks over the OBDII connection, which can then be applied to the bike in TuneECU. Two LC-1 units could be installed in the bungs to improve tuning efficiency and data quality.

If someone would be willing to lend me their KTM to OBD II cable (or let me purchase one for cost), I'll purchase the OT-2 and see if it works using the NB system. If it doesn't, then I'll buy two LC-1's and work from there.
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:40 AM   #442
cyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the octopus View Post
I've done my best to look around for the answer to this, so my apologies if this is redundant.

Has anyone been successful in datalogging? Either with the stock NB sensors or the WB sensors. An Innovate Motorsports OT-2 should, in theory, be able to obtain requisite data for map value modulations in LogWorks over the OBDII connection, which can then be applied to the bike in TuneECU. Two LC-1 units could be installed in the bungs to improve tuning efficiency and data quality.

If someone would be willing to lend me their KTM to OBD II cable (or let me purchase one for cost), I'll purchase the OT-2 and see if it works using the NB system. If it doesn't, then I'll buy two LC-1's and work from there.
I have done data logging off the actual sensors hardwired with an Innovate LM1 + 4 channel extra data cable and a single wideband O2 sensor that I moved back and forth between extra bungs on the headers (.e. doing only one cylinder at a time). You have to add (weld) an extra bung to each cylinder header if you intend to tune the bike with the OEM HEGO's (switching O2 sensors) in place. I would guess ECU isn't set up to read wideband HEGOs directly since it was set up with switching HEGO's. Pure conjecture, since nobody really knows exactly how these ECU's work, yet.

If you can find a way to log all the sensor data off the ODBI port, that would be really cool.
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Old 02-08-2011, 11:52 AM   #443
the octopus
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Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
I have done data logging off the actual sensors hardwired with an Innovate LM1 + 4 channel extra data cable and a single wideband O2 sensor that I moved back and forth between extra bungs on the headers (.e. doing only one cylinder at a time). You have to add (weld) an extra bung to each cylinder header if you intend to tune the bike with the OEM HEGO's (switching O2 sensors) in place. I would guess ECU isn't set up to read wideband HEGOs directly since it was set up with switching HEGO's. Pure conjecture, since nobody really knows exactly how these ECU's work, yet.

If you can log all the sensor data off the ODBI port, that would be really cool.
You should be able to, since OBDII usually carries most sensor data. You'd need to give priority to the most important variables for logging (RPM, TPS, O2) since you'd want smooth data, but it shouldn't be difficult to get what you need.

With an LC-1, you'd be able to replace the NB sensors with the WB sensors. You'd run analog output #1 from the controller to the stock O2 wire going into the ECM, set it to emulate the NB signal, and then run the serial output of the serial input of the next LC-1. The next LC-1 would be installed in the other cylinder in the same way, and connected to the ECM similarly. This way, you'd have information about exhaust gasses coming into the LC-1, being turned into NB data that the ECM can understand, and then sent to the ECM. No fault codes or error lights. You would then take the serial output of the terminal LC-1 and connect it to your computer for WB data datalogging in LogWorks (or some other logging program), though this wouldn't include information such as RPM or TPS. Either way, there would be no need for extra bungs.

Alternatively, the OT-2 would allow you to combine all that clean WB data with the other sensors and variables passed via ODBII into a really strong datalog.

My only concern is with corrections. I don't know what sort of corrections the KTM ECM runs in various conditions, or if TuneECU allows you to temporarily turn them off without throwing a code.

My offer still stands, if someone is willing to let me borrow a KTM diag port to OBDII cable, or build me one at cost, I'll purchase the OT-2 and see what sort of info we can get over OBDII. If the O2 data isn't available, or isn't clean enough, I'll pick up two LC-1's and add them into the mix. At the very least it will clarify what the signal path needs to be for effective tuning of the KTM ECM.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:01 PM   #444
cyborg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the octopus View Post
You should be able to, since OBDII usually carries most sensor data. You'd need to give priority to the most important variables for logging (RPM, TPS, O2) since you'd want smooth data, but it shouldn't be difficult to get what you need.

With an LC-1, you'd be able to replace the NB sensors with the WB sensors. You'd run analog output #1 from the controller to the stock O2 wire going into the ECM, set it to emulate the NB signal, and then run the serial output of the serial input of the next LC-1. The next LC-1 would be installed in the other cylinder in the same way, and connected to the ECM similarly. This way, you'd have information about exhaust gasses coming into the LC-1, being turned into NB data that the ECM can understand, and then sent to the ECM. No fault codes or error lights. You would then take the serial output of the terminal LC-1 and connect it to your computer for WB data datalogging in LogWorks (or some other logging program), though this wouldn't include information such as RPM or TPS. Either way, there would be no need for extra bungs.

Alternatively, the OT-2 would allow you to combine all that clean WB data with the other sensors and variables passed via ODBII into a really strong datalog.

My only concern is with corrections. I don't know what sort of corrections the KTM ECM runs in various conditions, or if TuneECU allows you to temporarily turn them off without throwing a code.

My offer still stands, if someone is willing to let me borrow a KTM diag port to OBDII cable, or build me one at cost, I'll purchase the OT-2 and see what sort of info we can get over OBDII. If the O2 data isn't available, or isn't clean enough, I'll pick up two LC-1's and add them into the mix. At the very least it will clarify what the signal path needs to be for effective tuning of the KTM ECM.
If you can get that all to work, that would be interesting for sure. That's worthy of a Tahoeacr setup!

The KTM to USB cable is again available here if you don't mind the $60.

http://www.cjdesignsllc.com/TuneECU.html
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:58 PM   #445
the octopus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
If you can get that all to work, that would be interesting for sure. That's worthy of a Tahoeacr setup!

The KTM to USB cable is again available here if you don't mind the $60.

http://www.cjdesignsllc.com/TuneECU.html
Hah. What's a Tahoeacr setup? I recognize that he's a fellow inmate, but that's where my understanding ends.

How hard is it to get to the O2 sensors? It was a nightmare on the Buell, and I won't be installing LC-1's if I have to pull everything apart in order to get to them.
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:06 PM   #446
cyborg
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Hah. What's a Tahoeacr setup? I recognize that he's a fellow inmate, but that's where my understanding ends.

How hard is it to get to the O2 sensors? It was a nightmare on the Buell, and I won't be installing LC-1's if I have to pull everything apart in order to get to them.
Look at some Tahoeacr threads and posts. He installed an aircraft data display panel on the bike and micro fuel-rate meter, EGT sensors, Innovate WB sensors, etc... all on-bike. I worked with him using a Tuneboy, for 29 map iterations before getting one I really liked, with my 2-into-1, and SD cams.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328809

HEGO/lambdas access: Front one pretty easy, header removal not needed. Rear one, total PIA. Rear header needs to be removed because the pipe hole under the bung is square (or was on mine) and fits the skinny NTK NB sensor and won't allow the usually larger Bosch WB or NB sensor in. Has to be Dremel'ed out to full bung diameter.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:02 PM   #447
the octopus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
Look at some Tahoeacr threads and posts. He installed an aircraft data display panel on the bike and micro fuel-rate meter, EGT sensors, Innovate WB sensors, etc... all on-bike. I worked with him using a Tuneboy, for 29 map iterations before getting one I really liked, with my 2-into-1, and SD cams.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=328809

HEGO/lambdas access: Front one pretty easy, header removal not needed. Rear one, total PIA. Rear header needs to be removed because the pipe hole under the bung is square (or was on mine) and fits the skinny NTK NB sensor and won't allow the usually larger Bosch WB or NB sensor in. Has to be Dremel'ed out to full bung diameter.
Sounds like a pretty sweet setup. Way more than I could ever pull off.

I'm going to do a little more exploration before I get totally in over my head on this one. I've got the tuning concept on lock, it's just a question of making it happen. I think I'll start with the OT-2 and see if I can use the stock NB sensors to datalog. It probably won't happen for a bit, anyway, since the cable is $60 and the OT-2 is $150, which is a little more than I'm willing to put into it. With that said, my offer still stands. If I can borrow a cable, I'll invest into the OT-2 and see if it works.

You said the O2 sensor was switchable. Do you mean that there's a single signal running through the OBDII and it alternates between front and rear cylinder sources? Do you know how quickly it witches? If so, it's not ideal, but it would still allow you to tune both front and rear cylinders. It'd take more time than dual NB signals, and certainly more than dual WB signals, but it should still work just fine.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:26 PM   #448
cyborg
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You said the O2 sensor was switchable. Do you mean that there's a single signal running through the OBDII and it alternates between front and rear cylinder sources?
No I meant "switching style lamda" aka narrowband O2 sensor, and KTM calls them HEGOS (Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor IIRC)

There are two HEGO's going to the ECU, separate signals, front and rear cylinder. No idea how the ECU routes it to the OBDII.
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Old 02-08-2011, 07:09 PM   #449
the octopus
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Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
No I meant "switching style lamda" aka narrowband O2 sensor, and KTM calls them HEGOS (Heated Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor IIRC)

There are two HEGO's going to the ECU, separate signals, front and rear cylinder. No idea how the ECU routes it to the OBDII.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I find that every time I come to a new platform, the system works in some totally weird, wonky way.

If there are separate signals, then there should be no trouble tuning with the NB signal, assuming they get sent over OBDII. If that's the way it works, then it's real easy to help people get started datalogging on the quick.
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Old 02-08-2011, 08:47 PM   #450
twodollardoug
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hey octopus. i live in calimesa, next door to yucaipa. i have a cable and a inovate lm-2. the lm-2 is tied up right now (im tuning a car with it) but when i finish with the car im gonna start on my adv. the first thing im going to try is to see if the ob-2 works. if not i will have to hard wire it. im thinking 02 sensor and tps, maybe rpm. but i really dont see a need to read rpm yet.

i will let you guys know if the obII part works and what all it will read. if anything.
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