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Old 06-02-2011, 06:22 PM   #871
nevermind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydlo View Post
Correct. The values you can change are the throttle position.
thanks!
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:26 PM   #872
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoeacr View Post
Good write up mydlo.

Now since we have this info in the last couple of posts, I will say what the real problem is in my opinion.

The L maps are used at very low throttle settings. These maps also control fuel when the TPS is 0% and you are coasting. As you roll off the throttle no matter what RPM the ECU switches to this map. The L maps work well above 5k. Ever had a throttle jerk moment above 5K? Below 5K they dump a bunch of fuel in the cylinders. This is not some unknown factor. It is even in the shop manuel FI section. Why is not in the manuel. Loading the cylinders full of unburnt fuel and having a too rich map will create this issue.

The real fix is a proper fuel map tune.

The go around fix is changing the f-l switch.

The band-aids are 0-2 sensors off, throttle tube and some have had luck with taking out the secondaries. This only works if your map is really screwed up. This slows velocity thru the throttle bodies. The argument on doing this is my fully aluminated chrome plated 20,000 rpm crotch rocket doesn't use them nor does Factory Yamaha at Laguna Seca. And how many of those bikes are ridin off road at 2,000 - 5,000 rpm?.


One thing to help diagnos the jerk is to really pay attention to when it happens. Does it only do it on flat level roads? Or maybe only slight downhill? What I'm getting at is you can be riding along at 6% TPS 3,200rpm level road. You start down a very slight grade at that same setting and it gets jerky. This is because with the slight downgrade your Manifold pressure has changed putting you into the part of the map that is causing the issue.
From what I've seen, I think you hit the nail on the head. The L map is far too rich and the ECU is trying to compensate by reducing the fuel, then adding fuel, and so on and so forth until the throttle position is changed. If only the KTM ECU would store the information about how much fuel it was adding/subtracting then it would tune itself!

Either way, I need to find some time to swap my wideband from my car into the KTM.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:02 AM   #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michhub View Post
Ok...my test hill wasn't 10-12% grade and not really long enough but here is what I captured...click for full size...


I could only run up to about 8K at a touch over 100mph...now I have to do some reading....
Time to do some tuning. Don't need a steep hill but it makes the time in gear longer so the data is easier to read accurately. Looks like you back off a little there at about 6,500 with the dip. Try taking out 3% at 3,200, 2% at 3,400 and 1% at 3,500. Then maybe 1% from 4,800 to 5,800 and see how it looks after that. It will take a little trial and error for you to get the hang of how much fuel to change. See when you closed the throttle the A/F went lean but when the RPM drop down to 4k it goes back to the 12's with the throttle still closed? Ah, the making of the "throttle jerk". Looks like it ends at about 11.5:1 at 2,800rpm.
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:27 AM   #874
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The 990 are using narrow band lamda sensors?

I read in
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...%20Basics.html

that wide band sensors use preheating device. Ours has a preheating, does this mean the sensor is wideband?
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:25 AM   #875
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gefr View Post
I read in
http://www.enginebasics.com/EFI%20Tu...%20Basics.html

that wide band sensors use preheating device. Ours has a preheating, does this mean the sensor is wideband?
Nope. There narrow band switching Zirconia style. All Lambdas are pre-heated now I think.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:53 AM   #876
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I see..

Thnx tahoeacr. Your recomendation links are great. Cheers.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:43 AM   #877
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mydlo View Post
Correct. The values you can change are the throttle position.

With this new bit of my understanding of the L-F switch and looking at the TPS numbers on all of the 07-08 maps either Euro, US, or Akra (which are the same switch points on all these maps) It would look to me that we are running primarily on the L maps....


Here are the F-L switch numbers I have for all...



So if the above is true than at 3800 rpms and anything below 67% throttle openings I am on the L map?? even yet... anything 67% or lower at any RPM is on the L map...

This would put most of your cruising and any basic riding that wasn't hot on the gas running on the L maps.....

Are the L maps all closed loop even at say 3600 RPM at 50% TPS??? If the O2's are off am I still running on the L map? (I believe that I am)

If this is true than wouldn't it make since like posted before to just shut off the switch map and just run open loop on either the L or F maps? How are you guys with data loggers capturing what box value/ map you are in.....?

Even with a datalogger you are still quessing at what value to change and on what map.....

I had a Rapid bike tuner on a turbo 4 stroke sled and the box value that you were in would be highlighted and you could see it jump around on the screen real time as you used the throttle..... After running mine in the garage on the TuneECU it doesn't look that this is the case with this software....

Tom... Is this something that could be done? Show a highlighted box on the value that is being used in real time?? If this was the case one could really zero in on where to make changes and be confident that you were adjusting the correct value in the correct map.....

Better yet... If we could have a tunerbike module like Rapid bike does that could plug into a wide band and make all of the adjustments to each map as you were riding..... Ok... I will stop dreaming...

Am I mistaken here...?
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Sapling screwed with this post 06-04-2011 at 08:06 AM
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:49 PM   #878
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Originally Posted by bikyto View Post

Are we still trying to put together a workshop with you at the Tahoe Rally?
Doesn't seem to be any interest. Before I approach KTM to see if the can send a tech I'd want to make sure we have some people. And I would want to make sure that KTM would have a tech who knows the programming(might be hard) not just the sensor input stuff. I can have a dyno here also. Maybe I should do a seperate thread of inquire.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:06 PM   #879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoeacr View Post
Doesn't seem to be any interest. Before I approach KTM to see if the can send a tech I'd want to make sure we have some people. And I would want to make sure that KTM would have a tech who knows the programming(might be hard) not just the sensor input stuff. I can have a dyno here also. Maybe I should do a seperate thread of inquire.
A separate thread might be good. One thought though, a Ktm tech would probably not want to work with tuneecu.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:42 PM   #880
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Originally Posted by bikyto View Post
A separate thread might be good. One thought though, a Ktm tech would probably not want to work with tuneecu.
True. And they probably wouldn't know crap or they would fix it themselves. The Techs are only going to know what KTM Austria wants them to know which ain't crap. Back in 07 I was trying to find out thru KTM(dealers didn't know) if Superduke cams would work in an Adventure. After calling Ohio they told me it wouldn't work. So after I gave them the idea they put them in the 09's. Maybe I should do the class myself and fix everybodies bike while they watch. Could be that by 2013 they would have the mapping fixed.
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:52 PM   #881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoeacr View Post
True. And they probably wouldn't know crap or they would fix it themselves. The Techs are only going to know what KTM Austria wants them to know which ain't crap. Back in 07 I was trying to find out thru KTM(dealers didn't know) if Superduke cams would work in an Adventure. After calling Ohio they told me it wouldn't work. So after I gave them the idea they put them in the 09's. Maybe I should do the class myself and fix everybodies bike while they watch. Could be that by 2013 they would have the mapping fixed.
You're right! They wouldn't know.
And yes... I was hoping to get some input/workshop from you!
And we could all chip in... To you!!
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:30 PM   #882
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Research and development of KTM ECU.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapling View Post
It would look to me that we are running primarily on the L maps....

So if the above is true than at 3800 rpms and anything below 67% throttle openings I am on the L map?? even yet... anything 67% or lower at any RPM is on the L map...

This would put most of your cruising and any basic riding that wasn't hot on the gas running on the L maps.....

Are the L maps all closed loop even at say 3600 RPM at 50% TPS??? If the O2's are off am I still running on the L map? (I believe that I am)
I thinj you are correct there. So If we alter the L maps we could achieve some improvements in rideability. If we start exchanging info and transformed L maps, maybe we end up with an improved L map. So let's start experimenting...
Oh after the 15 minute idle we will have to wait for the bike to fill in the adaptation data and then reach a verdict on rideability-economy. Cheers.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:49 PM   #883
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoeacr View Post
True. And they probably wouldn't know crap or they would fix it themselves. The Techs are only going to know what KTM Austria wants them to know which ain't crap. Back in 07 I was trying to find out thru KTM(dealers didn't know) if Superduke cams would work in an Adventure. After calling Ohio they told me it wouldn't work. So after I gave them the idea they put them in the 09's. Maybe I should do the class myself and fix everybodies bike while they watch. Could be that by 2013 they would have the mapping fixed.
Must still be snowing hard up there Jeff, since you're fussing with tuning!

Still love those SD cams on my 990. Sapling and I have been talking at the local MAG and he's thinking about them too...
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Old 06-04-2011, 06:50 AM   #884
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bikyto View Post
You're right! They wouldn't know.
And yes... I was hoping to get some input/workshop from you!
And we could all chip in... To you!!
I would gladly chipin with some contribution to tahoeacr if there are plans of developing a kit solution (cams, cable, maps).
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Old 06-04-2011, 07:04 AM   #885
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There is no way I can ride out to Tahoe this year, but I am considering flying out to the rally and getting some tuning training!!! I could start the right coast division of ACR Tuning Solutions...
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