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Old 06-16-2011, 03:35 AM   #946
Salzig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
Ok, so now *I* have another question...
That's exactly what I'm testing right now. In the 2nd butterflies map I've setted all the values lower than 5% to 5%. No other changes. Bike's an '07 ADV ABS.
I loaded the map monday evening and made the 15 min idle trick.
Tested the bike on the (short) commute to my work place and it seems smoother when reopening the throttle at very low speed (i.e. in traffic).
Yesterday I tried some very easy offroad and didn't notice big a difference (maybe only a very little), need to test on some more tecnical stuff.
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Old 06-16-2011, 07:37 AM   #947
Alleycatdad
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I did a map yesterday where I took my best-working map and added 5% to the second throttle from 1470-5000rpm and 0-10% TPS.

Did 50 miles mixed offroad and paved twisties, including my offroad (that should be "offroad"-it's not real technical but shows up fueling issues repeatably) testing loop.

Interesting.

There is a VERY noticeable difference in the off-throttle behavior from the stock 2nd throttle map. The severe off/on throttle jerk is affected in a good way, but it's because the off-throttle cut is softened. It doesn't run on when the throttle is closed, but the real abrupt engine braking effect from small openings to 0 tps is smoothed quite a lot.

IMHO, this is worth pursuing, at least on my bike.

The other interesting thing is that I've been adding fuel to the low end to try to soften the on-throttle performance, which has worked pretty well and has pretty much eliminated the steady-throttle surging/rpm hunting that was driving me nuts in low-rpm, small tps steady state. Adding some 2nd throttle opening has made the effects of the added fuel significantly more noticeable; enough so that now I'm gonna go start pulling some back out in certain areas.

IMHO, messing with the 2nd throttle map is worth testing.

Steve
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:40 AM   #948
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
IMHO, messing with the 2nd throttle map is worth testing.

Steve
I also did change my 2nd throttle map.
I made a mix of a standard adv '07 map and the SM "akra" mapping.
Where the akra was more open i left it, but where the adv map was more open i changed the value of the akra mapping until it was the same.
I haven't got a change to make a test run, because of the 15k km maintenance that i'm performing now on my bike.
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Old 06-16-2011, 08:44 AM   #949
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
I did a map yesterday where I took my best-working map and added 5% to the second throttle from 1470-5000rpm and 0-10% TPS.
I am doing the same with 2% second butterfly opening up to 5% TPS everywhere there was less than 2%.

There is a VERY noticeable difference in the off-throttle behavior from the stock 2nd throttle map. The severe off/on throttle jerk is affected in a good way, but it's because the off-throttle cut is softened. It doesn't run on when the throttle is closed, but the real abrupt engine braking effect from small openings to 0 tps is smoothed quite a lot.

IMHO, this is worth pursuing, at least on my bike.

The other interesting thing is that I've been adding fuel to the low end to try to soften the on-throttle performance, for which map are you refering to, F or L?

IMHO, messing with the 2nd throttle map is worth testing.

Steve
We made a map increasing fuel on F maps 1% up to 4000rpm and 5% TPS and another 1% up to 3000rpm and 2% TPS with installed footbal shaped secondary butterflies and is working great. Secondary butterflies had already eliminated surging and increasing fuel came to replace previously installed AKRA map. In citi traffic fuel light comes on at 20kms more.
I will implement this map, adding secondary butterflies opening 2% up to 5% TPS with stock secondaries and see what happens.

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Old 06-16-2011, 09:17 AM   #950
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gefr View Post
We made a map increasing fuel on F maps 1% up to 4000rpm and 5% TPS and another 1% up to 3000rpm and 2% TPS with installed footbal shaped secondary butterflies and is working great. Secondary butterflies had already eliminated surging and increasing fuel came to replace previously installed AKRA map. In citi traffic fuel light comes on at 20kms more.
I will implement this map, adding secondary butterflies opening 2% up to 5% and see what happens.
F map; I've got my F-L switch set such that I'm only using the F map above idle; simplifies things for us seat o the pants trying to relate to carbs can't measure MAP while riding folks.

Since you have the footballs, I'm not sure that % of 2nd throttle opening translates well between my bike and yours; you flow some percentage of opening even when closed...and I suspect but don't have the geometry skills to prove that as your footballs open the flow rate increases at a greater rate than the same percentage of opening would give with the original round disk-or maybe that's the other way around...

I started with small percentages of fuel increases but have found the best improvement for the surging/hunting with considerably more than you are adding. Of course, now that I added some second throttle, I'm finding that I may need to pull some back out, so who knows where I will end up. Once I'm happy with a solution I'm gonna buy a dyno run and see where the seat of my pants method got me....

Steve
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Old 06-16-2011, 12:45 PM   #951
Bronco3738
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Steve, I haven't changed anything other than adding the R map. Looking last night the only thing different is the 2nd butterfly map. Unfortunately last night I noticed the temp was back up to three from the top right before I hit my driveway. Not sure if the bike adapted and leaned out or caused by the added throttle I was using on the way home. The extra top end rush is addicting. I am looking at trying to bump the L maps up a % or 2 up to about 3250 or 3500. Since this is were I ride in the neighborhood and on the 2 tracks exploring. Low throttle openings and small movements I am thinking it's under the F-L switch on most of that riding. This is on a factory R map, not the Arko map.

I'll post the result when I get a chance to load and test it.
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:12 PM   #952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronco3738 View Post
Steve, I haven't changed anything other than adding the R map. Looking last night the only thing different is the 2nd butterfly map. Unfortunately last night I noticed the temp was back up to three from the top right before I hit my driveway. Not sure if the bike adapted and leaned out or caused by the added throttle I was using on the way home. The extra top end rush is addicting. I am looking at trying to bump the L maps up a % or 2 up to about 3250 or 3500. Since this is were I ride in the neighborhood and on the 2 tracks exploring. Low throttle openings and small movements I am thinking it's under the F-L switch on most of that riding. This is on a factory R map, not the Arko map.

I'll post the result when I get a chance to load and test it.
You gonna just bump em across the board? I can't relate the L maps to my carb experience and carbs run just fine without 'em, which is why I adjusted the FL switch to put me into the F maps. May be suboptimal, but at least I can unnerstan' it. I've got no clue where the issues happen MAP-wise and thus don't see a lot of potential for my sorry butt to fix it.

Let us know!

Steve
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Old 06-16-2011, 01:30 PM   #953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
You gonna just bump em across the board? I can't relate the L maps to my carb experience and carbs run just fine without 'em, which is why I adjusted the FL switch to put me into the F maps. May be suboptimal, but at least I can unnerstan' it. I've got no clue where the issues happen MAP-wise and thus don't see a lot of potential for my sorry butt to fix it.

Let us know!

Steve
I could be wrong, but from what I read, the L map is just off idle and cruising. That to me would be like the idle screw and somewhat needle height. Yes across the board for now. Which covers most if not all of the area where it would be in the L for those RPMs. It's still less than the Akro. To me my bike seams lean on the bottom. It doesn't like to run cold till it hits one or two bars. That's my logic for starting there. We will see how it turns out.
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Old 06-18-2011, 06:08 AM   #954
teti
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question?

Removed O2
2nd Accelerator (butterfly) eliminated
Removed SAS
map AKRA
2 in 1 with LVince

This greatly improves in low revolutions and is notable

final velocity reduced by 10 km/h?

is it normal?

atte Saludos

teti
---------------------------------------------------
pregunta ?
O2 eliminado
2 acelerador ( mariposa ) eliminado
SAS eliminado
mapa AKRA
2 en 1 con LVince
esto mejora mucho en bajas revoluciones y es notable
velocidad final reducida en 10 km/h?
es normal ?
saludos atte
teti
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Old 06-18-2011, 10:17 PM   #955
Alleycatdad
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I have a question for those of you who have had good results with removing or modifying the secondary butterflies:

Are your O2 sensors enabled or have you either installed eliminators or diasabled them via tuneboy or tuneEcu?

I'm interested in the very wide range of reported experiences with this modification; I've added some opening to the second throttle map and am very happy with the resulting driveability, but in combination with richening the low end to drive out the surge/hunting it seems to be negatively affecting mileage. I expected some reduction but now that I've added some 2nd throttle opening the reduction in mileage is disproportionate to the amount of added fuel. I'm wondering if restoring the O2 sensors will help, but the first step has to be a fair test of the map that's in there now as a baseline. Of course, perhaps it's just that the bike's done an hour of 15 min idles this tank as well.

Overall, it's running the best it ever has and is probably as good as I can get it without a G2. It's not the end of the world if it gets 35 mpg instead of 38, but 30 or less starts making for short legs traveling.

Steve
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:21 AM   #956
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Hi,

Tahoeacr have done in one thread of this subject some base % correction for F maps but impossible for me to re-find them, even to read all thread....

Someone can help me to find this values? It's only to begin my tune...
Very thanks !!

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Old 06-19-2011, 09:57 AM   #957
Alleycatdad
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I don't think I'd necessarily start with some else's numbers; the variability in people's experiences with their bikes makes me think that what you pick up in the process gives you the tools to know which way to go next.

If you begin the process at some "random" point recommended by someone else, and you don't like it, which way do you go next?

Here's how I went about it, remembering a couple of basic rules:

1- go rich first
2- change only one thing at a time, then test
3- if it feels better, it probably is

The biggest issue though is that you MUST be clear with yourself about what exactly you are trying to fix, and be able to replicate it. I put together a local loop of places where basically the bike made me want to grind my teeth the worst. You may not be able to tune for more than one thing at a time; rpm hunting/surging is NOT the same issue as snatchy on-off throttle response. Fixing these may require adding fuel which will not help economy. Tuning for economy has its own compromises. You have to be clear about what you are trying to do.
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:12 AM   #958
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So, my process so far:

1-turn off the O2 sensors so they're not working against me; variables outside my control are unwelcome when I'm making changes.

2- Adjust F-L switch to 12,12,5,0,0,0,0 -this puts all riding into the F maps which I can at least get part of my brain around. L maps are too hard to focally tune (for me) becuase I have no way to identify where the bike's acting up relative to MAP.

2a- Use TuneEcu to mark your throttle so that you can identify where the bike is acting up. I use 0-5-10-20% marks and esitmate inside those. Ride the bike and figure out where it is worst.

3- I began by using the fuel trim map, with the checkbox under the Edit menu "Use F trim for all F Tables" CHECKED, to add 2% fuel to the region where I had identified that the surging/hunting was the worst. For me, this was 1-5% TPS from 3000-4000 rpm.

4- Test ride. More than one is best. Result: There was minor but noticeable improvement, but it was localized much more than I had expected. When you adjust a carb, there is some bleed-over to varying degrees into adjacent adjustments; with FI, what you change, changes, and what you don't, doesn't.

5- Added fuel 2000-4500 rpm, 0-10% tps. MUCH better.

6- As I learned about the effects of small fuel changes I began to use larger steps. Also, as I began to use larger changes to the map, I started to smooth the edges of the region in which I was making the changes. Probably not needed but it makes me feel better...

7- I got to a place where the surge and hunting was improved significantly, and was reading about the football-shaped second throttle butterflies. Almost bought a pair but it occurred to me that I could probably replicate the effect with TuneEcu. Since others had completely removed the secondaries without changing their maps with no ill effects, I can see no reason to change these values freely.

8- I added a coule of percent to the 2nd throttle opening values in the same general areas that I'd been making fueling changes and saw significant improvement in driveability. I've since added some more (change one thing at a time, please!) and am quite happy with the result.

I am currently testing a map I like quite a lot for both economy and driveability. You will find that as your results improve you will need more time for good testing, as the results become incresingly incremental. Also, as you begin making changes in more than one map (Fmaps + 2nd throttle, etc), you still need to change one thing at a time in order to evaluate the change you've made, and this adds testing time as well.

Fortunately, we are working on a motorcycle, so testing=riding and that can never be entirely bad!

Good luck!

Steve
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Old 06-19-2011, 10:22 AM   #959
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It's an iterative process; you have to make changes and then test, sometimes you'll go back and retest.

A final note on testing.

Sometimes I forget how lucky I am. I live in a place where I can ride singletrack, fireroads, freeway, and twisties, all within minutes of my house and only rarely with any traffic, so I forget that for some, dirt is a weekend only experience, and traffic is a fact of daily life. Suckers.

Please be careful testing. If you are doing it correctly it can be a distracting process and getting hurt or trashing the bike will not speed up the process.

Steve
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Old 06-19-2011, 03:09 PM   #960
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Great!

Hey Steve,
Thanks for the excellent summary of the process - I am still trying to find the time (and man-parts) to step into the TuneEcu abyss (no turning back).
Oh, and by the way...you are a bastard:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleycatdad View Post
Sometimes I forget how lucky I am. I live in a place where I can ride singletrack, fireroads, freeway, and twisties, all within minutes of my house and only rarely with any traffic, so I forget that for some, dirt is a weekend only experience, and traffic is a fact of daily life. Suckers.

Steve
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