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Old 11-26-2011, 08:49 AM   #886
eakins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul thompson View Post
Easier to clean and cheaper i guess. Supposed to be a wire wheel version later.
triumph is releasing a 1200 tiger xc version w/ 21" fr & 17" r spoked wheels.
no word on if it's tubeless yet as that 21" tubeless is rare (the 800xc-r rims are $$$ aftermarket)
ktm uses a tube in the 990 adv

excel is making those tubeless rims for the S10.
not sure the details of the honda crosstour tubeless spoke mfg.

i would expect excel to be the company making it happen for the mfg. is they request it.
they already got the 17" rear and the 19" front in place so a 21" is possible as is a 17" front.
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Old 11-26-2011, 08:54 AM   #887
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Originally Posted by paul thompson View Post
Just found out that the XTour will be 13,200 when it gets to the UK.

Bat shit pricing.

The Tiger will be 11,500 max, the S10 has been dropped to 12,000 and the GS is still around the 12,000 mark.

Another VFR12 type sales disaster.
I have just crossed this off my list.
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Old 11-26-2011, 01:29 PM   #888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
triumph is releasing a 1200 tiger xc version w/ 21" fr & 17" r spoked wheels.
no word on if it's tubeless yet as that 21" tubeless is rare (the 800xc-r rims are $$$ aftermarket)
ktm uses a tube in the 990 adv

excel is making those tubeless rims for the S10.
not sure the details of the honda crosstour tubeless spoke mfg.

i would expect excel to be the company making it happen for the mfg. is they request it.
they already got the 17" rear and the 19" front in place so a 21" is possible as is a 17" front.
Eakins, my ears (eh, eyes... what's in a word on a forum...) are pinned, are these informations confirmed? Source? I still recal that Triumph would not build spoked rims to avoid high costs... Does dat "XC" version also includes an larger fuel tank in stead of the 20 litres capacity of the explorer version?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul thompson View Post
Just found out that the XTour will be 13,200 when it gets to the UK.

Bat shit pricing.

The Tiger will be 11,500 max, the S10 has been dropped to 12,000 and the GS is still around the 12,000 mark.

Another VFR12 type sales disaster.
Exactly and precisely what I mentioned before. Overpriced, overweight, over-dated. Even before it has come on the market.
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Old 11-26-2011, 01:55 PM   #889
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Originally Posted by scottie boy View Post
There's a simple solution to that. Don't half-ass together a sport tourer. Put Honda's enegineering resources to work and make the world's best sport tourer and price it competitively. I believe that Honda could beat BMW at it's own game if they just got off their lazy asses. There was a time when the Japanese were the innovators but recently the Europeans have been on the cutting edge.
I think that is exactly what Honda decided to do with the new VFR. It would have been cheaper to parts bin a bike together or use an inline-four, but they decided to build from scratch a brand new platform with a new clean-sheet and very innovative V4, new shaft drive, new chassis, new transmission option, new everything. You can call the new VFR a lot of things, but I would never characterize it as a "half-ass" effort. Honda spent a ton of money on developing this bike.

They just missed the mark, as they often do these days. They couldn't decide if it was a sport-tourer or a sport bike, they crippled it with insufficient range, they didn't introduce it with the innovative DCT to start with, and they had someone from the planet Vulcan do the styling. To compound their problems, they mis-named the bike by calling it a VFR which totally PO'ed off the loyal VFR faithful who had been patiently waiting for a 1000cc chain-drive gentlemen's sport bike that returned to their beloved gear-drive cams. The final nail in the coffin was raising expectations with the ridiculous viral-marketing campaign the said the bike was going to "change motorcycling forever."

Honda screwed up royally, but their effort was definitely full-ass, not half-ass. I'd prefer that Honda stop swinging for the fences and instead go back to doing evolutionary bikes that are priced competitively. Update bikes like the old VFR, the Transalp, the African Twin and start selling them aggressively. Bring over cool bikes like the CB1100F with a retro version and a cafe version. Take the XR650R and build a great dual-sport with a big tank along the lines of the old KTM 640A. These are things that don't require huge investments and can be priced competitively.

- Mark
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Old 11-26-2011, 04:34 PM   #890
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I've seen the CrossTourer

last week when I was in the UK, at the Motorcycle Live show in Birmingham. I also saw the new CrossRunner, and the NX700C, and was able to sit on a CrossRunner at a dealer in London.

I think all of these bikes would sell in the US, because they are unlike most of the bikes on the market. All feature fairly upright riding positions. From talking to the London dealer, the CrossRunner is a better bike than the VFR800 it's based upon because the redesigned ECU make the engine much more tractable. They did think it was not as good looking as the sport bikes.

If the CrossTourer comes to the US I will most likely by one. Not as an offroad or dual sport, but as a more comfortable and more suitable long distance tourer that would be a candidate for taking down to South America. I've looked at the 1200GS and GSA Beemers, and they're nice bikes but I like Honda better.

Yes, it's heavier than I would like, but I've learned that weight helps grreatly on the interstate at higher speeds. My one real concern is with fuel economy; the BMWs are very frugal and that is compelling.

I think the big reason we don't see so many of the new bikes is the NHTSA, EPA, and DOT. It's very expensive to get a bike certified for the US market, simply because of our stupid government and its stupid policies. Regulation is killing us.
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Old 11-26-2011, 06:19 PM   #891
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But Yamaha can afford to pay for all that regulation stuff just to bring in 1,000 S10's. Surely Honda has as much money as Yamaha. Same government, different corporate management.
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:02 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
I think that is exactly what Honda decided to do with the new VFR. It would have been cheaper to parts bin a bike together or use an inline-four, but they decided to build from scratch a brand new platform with a new clean-sheet and very innovative V4, new shaft drive, new chassis, new transmission option, new everything. You can call the new VFR a lot of things, but I would never characterize it as a "half-ass" effort. Honda spent a ton of money on developing this bike.

They just missed the mark, as they often do these days. They couldn't decide if it was a sport-tourer or a sport bike, they crippled it with insufficient range, they didn't introduce it with the innovative DCT to start with, and they had someone from the planet Vulcan do the styling. To compound their problems, they mis-named the bike by calling it a VFR which totally PO'ed off the loyal VFR faithful who had been patiently waiting for a 1000cc chain-drive gentlemen's sport bike that returned to their beloved gear-drive cams. The final nail in the coffin was raising expectations with the ridiculous viral-marketing campaign the said the bike was going to "change motorcycling forever."

Honda screwed up royally, but their effort was definitely full-ass, not half-ass. I'd prefer that Honda stop swinging for the fences and instead go back to doing evolutionary bikes that are priced competitively. Update bikes like the old VFR, the Transalp, the African Twin and start selling them aggressively. Bring over cool bikes like the CB1100F with a retro version and a cafe version. Take the XR650R and build a great dual-sport with a big tank along the lines of the old KTM 640A. These are things that don't require huge investments and can be priced competitively.

- Mark

I will agree that the new VFR is a cutting edge bike but as you said Honda missed the mark; its not a sport bike and its not a sport tourer. I'll be honest, I don't know what market they were targeting with this bike.

I've not ridden one but from everything I've read the motor is absolutely phenomenal. If they had made the ergonomics more comfortable, given it more range, and integrated some luggage maybe they would have the C14 and K1600 scrambling to catch up. Honda swung for the fences ten years ago when they radically redesigned the Goldwing and they hit a grand slam.
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Old 11-26-2011, 07:12 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by fredz43 View Post
But Yamaha can afford to pay for all that regulation stuff just to bring in 1,000 S10's. Surely Honda has as much money as Yamaha. Same government, different corporate management.
Amanzingly the regs in Europe are more stringent than in USA... people like to complain about EPA, OHSA, etc...

Motorcycle manufacturers know that in USA if ain't cheap no sales, except BMW and Ducati that can get away with murder.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:47 AM   #894
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Originally Posted by scottie boy View Post
I will agree that the new VFR is a cutting edge bike but as you said Honda missed the mark; its not a sport bike and its not a sport tourer. I'll be honest, I don't know what market they were targeting with this bike.
The VFR is a sports tourer, whevether you like it or not is another matter. I notice that in the US people label bikes such as the Pan European and R1200RT as "Sport Tourers" when they are quite obviously tourers (and bloody good ones) - even the marketing tells you that.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:57 AM   #895
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I know that Japan inc is slow to respond to market trends, but most of the guys i know that used to own sports tourers (VFR's, Sprint's) are now on Tall Rounders. Perhaps Honda should have launched the XTour rather than the VFR - and this is from a former 1200 owner.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:24 PM   #896
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Originally Posted by Furious D View Post
Uggh, Another 600+ LB Adventure bike. Why dont they just put knobbies and a matte paint job on a Goldwing and call it a dual sport?
It been said that this bike is NOT aimed at anyone planning to go offroad, rather it's aimed at all the people who want everyone else to think they're going to take it offroad. Makes sense and it'll sell bikes.
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Old 11-27-2011, 03:34 PM   #897
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Originally Posted by markjenn View Post
I think that is exactly what Honda decided to do with the new VFR. It would have been cheaper to parts bin a bike together or use an inline-four, but they decided to build from scratch a brand new platform with a new clean-sheet and very innovative V4, new shaft drive, new chassis, new transmission option, new everything. You can call the new VFR a lot of things, but I would never characterize it as a "half-ass" effort. Honda spent a ton of money on developing this bike.

They just missed the mark, as they often do these days. They couldn't decide if it was a sport-tourer or a sport bike, they crippled it with insufficient range, they didn't introduce it with the innovative DCT to start with, and they had someone from the planet Vulcan do the styling. To compound their problems, they mis-named the bike by calling it a VFR which totally PO'ed off the loyal VFR faithful who had been patiently waiting for a 1000cc chain-drive gentlemen's sport bike that returned to their beloved gear-drive cams. The final nail in the coffin was raising expectations with the ridiculous viral-marketing campaign the said the bike was going to "change motorcycling forever."

Honda screwed up royally, but their effort was definitely full-ass, not half-ass. I'd prefer that Honda stop swinging for the fences and instead go back to doing evolutionary bikes that are priced competitively. Update bikes like the old VFR, the Transalp, the African Twin and start selling them aggressively. Bring over cool bikes like the CB1100F with a retro version and a cafe version. Take the XR650R and build a great dual-sport with a big tank along the lines of the old KTM 640A. These are things that don't require huge investments and can be priced competitively.

- Mark
Well said. Couldn't hurt to send your comment in a letter to Honda America.
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Old 11-27-2011, 08:15 PM   #898
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Well said. Couldn't hurt to send your comment in a letter to Honda America.
Well I think Honda America is well aware that Honda Japan does not have a clue. Honda Japan wanted to kill the ST1300, because the VFR1200F was considered the replacement, but Honda America told them they were crazy. Honda America obviously thinks the Cross-Tourer won't sell here. Considering that it appears to be priced above the GS in Europe (by a few thousand) they are probably right!
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:33 AM   #899
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Honda America obviously thinks the Cross-Tourer won't sell here. Considering that it appears to be priced above the GS in Europe (by a few thousand) they are probably right!
I guess you refer to Xtour's rumoured price in UK (from Paul Thompson).

Fyi, UK is not the same as Europe, it's only one country in Europe.

XTour may be more expensive in UK but for example here in Finland 2011 GS is more expensive than 2012 Xtour, we have official prices for both of them.
GS base model including ABS is few hundred Euros more expensive than Xtour.
Add ESA and GS is 10% more expensive.
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Old 11-28-2011, 09:41 AM   #900
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Originally Posted by lonerockz View Post
Well I think Honda America is well aware that Honda Japan does not have a clue. Honda Japan wanted to kill the ST1300, because the VFR1200F was considered the replacement, but Honda America told them they were crazy. Honda America obviously thinks the Cross-Tourer won't sell here. Considering that it appears to be priced above the GS in Europe (by a few thousand) they are probably right!
so honda na convinced honda corp to keep producing the st for them?
if true, that shows na does have influence over the "all-knowing" corp.

as for price, no way honda could charge more than a comparable GS.
sure honda would love to think they could but they're not that good to be able to.
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