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Old 02-18-2012, 01:36 AM   #1126
bluesman
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well, I think Kevin reviews are very reasonable - at least I did not find any clear incline towards BMW mentioned.

But one thing makes it very clear - if anyone remotely thinking of taking that to unpaved ground in any form - this person should be big tall strong man.
Every time I get my hands on any of new bikes I try to lean them a bit right there, at motor show. Usually they gently ask me "please do not tilt bike, sir!" thou 2 years ago Honda boys simply asked me not to touch it ever :) when I tried to lean new model to check weight.
On same Brussels Automotosalon where photos on previous page from we tried to lift rear of Crosstourer together with my friend. Now, I spend 3 times a week in serious gym, thou I am short guy. My friend quite hefty man.
We could not move that bike an inch.
THEN I read it is 275 kg. +10 with DCT.
OK. Now I understand.
The most wonderful tech in any bike can simply be let down by weight. No, even with low CG still it is let down.
This is VERY heavy bike for excellent paved roads. What new it would bring to US buyers?

This is so much of behemoth, it getting closer to territory of fast road blasters than anything else. Kinda Pan Europe.

What is even more amazing is that NC700 weghts 228 kg wet - WTF??? Does it host Mark 19 grenade launcher or..?

I am sure that if Crosstourer would weight 200 kg everyone will be much more OK with it and if NC700 would weight 160-170 kg it would save at least 0.5 liter on fuel consumption without smart tech. Then both would be table turning bikes.
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Old 02-18-2012, 02:36 AM   #1127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD View Post
"Reasonably well" to "elephant seal" in 20Kg, One wonders if the exaggerations do the same.

Anyway Ash is buying an NC700 because fuel economy is the new black.

Looks like the bike is set up to be stable not twitchy.

Standard.
Caster Angle - 28°
Trail - 107 mm

Looks a bit like that.

Jack up the back and drop through the forks for the poms.

Fuel economy isn't brilliant on the test, but tight motors and test riders do not an eco challenge make.

Looking at Ash's piece and the visordown report from Mark Forsyth, you can read between the lines and see a pretty good bike that is positioned further down the road-touring end of the spectrum than anything yet produced with similar looks.

IIRC Forsyth is (or was) a very, very quick track rider and so his comments about the big Honda handling sweetly until you reach go-to-jail territory can be taken at face value.

Similarly his speculation on fuel range (UK gallons, I'm assuming):

"Riding it like I stole it I managed 36mpg according to the trip computer. I’d say 50mpg is much more likely if you rode it like you’d paid your own money for it. The tank is 21.5 litres, addressing all the gripes about the VFR1200."

Thinking about Ash's comments on the flexy front end: I doubt weight would be the key issue here. Rather, it will be the lazy steering geometry and wide handlebars.

The two reviews take opposing approaches. Ash is keen to tell us the bike is not very sporty; once he's got that done, he concedes it would make a nice tourer but expresses concern about range.

Forsyth assumes we can tell from the weight that it's not a sportbike. He then observes that for a big, heavy and very comfortable tourer it handles bloody well. And he doubts range will be an issue, because buyers of something that heavy won't be wringing its neck.

The one place they are inexplicably at odds is on the suspension: Forsyth likes it, while Ash complains.

Ash likes Ducatis and BMWs when they're good, but he's hardly partisan. His review of the previous generation Multistrada 1100 ended "Not recommended", after the electrics let him down; and his launch report from the original K1200S was headed: "The Japanese can sleep easy", and noted: "The main difficulty is the engine, which offers crude under-development in place of sophisticated refinement."
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:09 AM   #1128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesman View Post
WTF??? Does it host Mark 19 grenade launcher or..?
.
Well think something in the Honda design manual recommends it should survive being ht by on but you are quoting the DCT version. The Standard is 214Kg. 229Kg for the DCT.

275Kg Stand Cross Tourer (V4). 268Kg s10 (Measured), 259Kg Tiger (Claimed)
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Old 02-18-2012, 03:50 AM   #1129
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I see, my bad - I got it mixed up.
219 is more like it, but still too much for practical sub-50 bhp 700cc naked bike.
Anyway, I shall not sidetrack in this tread. Sorry.


I just remember that my good friend who rides Varadero long-distance trips (I mean - weeks and months long) calling me from parking nearby to come and help him lift his Varadero as he just can't manage it. That told me a lot, specially after I rode it. About same weight figure I think as new Crosstourer. Beemers easier to lift I must admit - the CG really much lower. I wonder if you (I hope not) had this experience with Sutenere?
Did I read it correctly that it using same design frame as VFR? This makes it really road bike...
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Old 02-18-2012, 07:01 AM   #1130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Looking at Ash's piece and the visordown report from Mark Forsyth, you can read between the lines and see a pretty good bike that is positioned further down the road-touring end of the spectrum than anything yet produced with similar looks.

IIRC Forsyth is (or was) a very, very quick track rider and so his comments about the big Honda handling sweetly until you reach go-to-jail territory can be taken at face value.

Similarly his speculation on fuel range (UK gallons, I'm assuming):

"Riding it like I stole it I managed 36mpg according to the trip computer. I’d say 50mpg is much more likely if you rode it like you’d paid your own money for it. The tank is 21.5 litres, addressing all the gripes about the VFR1200."

Thinking about Ash's comments on the flexy front end: I doubt weight would be the key issue here. Rather, it will be the lazy steering geometry and wide handlebars.

The two reviews take opposing approaches. Ash is keen to tell us the bike is not very sporty; once he's got that done, he concedes it would make a nice tourer but expresses concern about range.

Forsyth assumes we can tell from the weight that it's not a sportbike. He then observes that for a big, heavy and very comfortable tourer it handles bloody well. And he doubts range will be an issue, because buyers of something that heavy won't be wringing its neck.

The one place they are inexplicably at odds is on the suspension: Forsyth likes it, while Ash complains.

Ash likes Ducatis and BMWs when they're good, but he's hardly partisan. His review of the previous generation Multistrada 1100 ended "Not recommended", after the electrics let him down; and his launch report from the original K1200S was headed: "The Japanese can sleep easy", and noted: "The main difficulty is the engine, which offers crude under-development in place of sophisticated refinement."
That's one of the best summations by an adv inmate, I've ever had the pleasure to read.

You outdo yourself sir !

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Old 02-18-2012, 04:58 PM   #1131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
Forsyth assumes we can tell from the weight that it's not a sportbike. He then observes that for a big, heavy and very comfortable tourer it handles bloody well.
Hmmmm, you could be describing a GoldWing.
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Old 02-19-2012, 07:20 AM   #1132
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Hmmmm, you could be describing a GoldWing.
Well, without wanting to defend the review, that point does cut both ways.

By many accounts the Wing does handle well. And it's - what, half as heavy again?

996 - thanks for the kind words.
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Old 02-19-2012, 08:36 AM   #1133
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Aren't R1200 GSAs about the same weight? They do fine off-road. Super Teneres do fine, and they're up over 600lb.

If it carries the weight well, one man can pick it up. One man can pick up a fallen GoldWing. It's not ideal, but it's manageable.
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Old 02-19-2012, 09:09 AM   #1134
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Here is my thinking behind this opinion. Can be argued of course, but for me it is so:

Anything can be ridden offroad. However, there is bikes for different things.
"doing well offroad" is very wide margin.
Cyril Despres once took ride on modified 950SE in Le Touquet event. Because they have prize for "first to finish straight and enter corner" he wanted to donate to Meoni school he did 190 kmph on 950. Then he dropped out of event. When asked why he said this bike is WAY too heavy for this ride.
I can quite surely say, that lifting any of those bikes more than 5 times in 3 hours requires big/tall person who does keep fit. Also there it kind of machines for big open piste riding, which is fast and dangerous unless you are really good at it. No way this weight is safe to ride alone to places, where you may not find help to lift it - even off yourself. One of guys I know had some scary time in Mongolia when his GS pinned him down in middle of nowhere. He is strong man and ex-jetfighter pilot, but he said he felt helpless.
GS is lighter than new Crosstourer. S10 - I guess almost same. Vara about same.
Sorry, I can't agree those are good fit bikes to do infamous "Charlie and Ewan" thing.
But there is also other aspect. No crash bars can save bike that weights +250 kgs without bending to knots. It is not bike to drop, or you have to spend money on crashbars etc. all the time.
All this lead me to conclusion it is bike for roads. Perhaps it can do hard surface unpaved well, but it is not what it meant for judging by what even Honda themselves say to press.

Sorry if I made it too long.
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:12 AM   #1135
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ADV Member Crosstourer Roadtest

OK guys, just returned from the Catalonian playgrounds. Haven't been able to read the other reviews, but here is mine. Pictures will follow as soon as I am back home. Please accept my bad English... ;)

Its just a short conclusion, don't hesitate to ask for detailed information.
BTW... on gravel it performs remarkably good!

The new Honda Cross Tourer!
by Bernard 'Two Plugs'

The first impression
You only have one chance to make a good first impression, they say. That first impression was given, exactly a year ago, on the Milan International Motorcycle Exhibition, where the prototype of the Crosstourer was revealed to the International Public. The first impression was not entirely positive. The bike looked rather ‘small’, and its ‘out of the box’ design made people wonder if someone at the Honda R&D department was suffering from some kind of mental illness.

A first impression can rarely be undone. But sometimes, it can. Standing next to a production model of the Crosstourer, the first thing I noticed that the bike is not that small. Of course, most bikes look tiny beside my 6,8 ft / 2,04 meter. But the Crosstourer certainly does not feel small. This is also due to the design ... it seems as if some parts of the Cross Tourer are deliberately designed 'oversized'. This is not a disadvantage! It seems as if the bike is built for eternity, carved out of a solid block of granite. In that sense, the Crosstourer reminds me to the Buell Ulysses. And that's a compliment to the Honda.

Honda has paid much attention to the design. Honda phrased the bike as "A Sophisticated hard duty". In civilized English an ‘Royal Multipurpose Bike’ might be a good approach. Or: what about a SUM? Sports Utility Bike? With a seat height of 850 cm, the bike is easily accessible to a wide audience. Still, sitting on the bike you don’t have the impression that it is ‘low’. Pleasant surprise: in comparison to the XL700V Transalp it is much easier to get out of the saddle for retaining a standing position on the footpegs. The steeringbar is also higher placed than at the competition. You won’t need raisers on this one.

For that 2nd impression, the Cross Tourer receives a big plus. The unscathed first impressions are repaired.
The first kilometers

After a detailed explanation on the technology behind the Crosstourer (in particular the operation of the 2 nd generation DCT including a feetpedal shift pedal we go. After a smooth city drive and about 30 kilometers on the motorway it is time for a first impression. The wind protection and comfort are definitely good, except that the standard screen - I would say, according to good Honda Traditions - really is bad. The dashboard and controls are instead, decisive when it comes to information and ergonomics. Finally a fuel gauge, finally a gear indicator! The build quality is absolutely superb and the V4 engine does its job with ease and naturalness that I have never experienced on any other large bigtrail bike.

The smooth performace also poses a huge disadvantage ...: the economy meter (set to measure the average fuelconsumption) points out at a staggering 8 liters per 100 km and that, even at highway speeds,is just to much. That is over 1 to 12,5! While the Crosstourer appears to be born to perform as an comfy long distance tourer in comfort, even with 2 up.

We leave the motorway and drive through country roads towards the mountains of Catalonia. On shady slopes there are still remains of snow, on the roads still saltdeposits. The onboard computer measures an outdoor temperature of 10 degrees Celsius that during the day will gradually increase to a comfortable 18 degrees Celsius. The engine continues to work tirelessly until the first tight hairpins appear. The speed experience on the Cross Tourer is a completely different dimension than for example a Transalp, or even a Varadero. The transmission works well with this: During the rapid ascent I discover that I’m only using 2 nd or 3rd gear. Just because I do not get the impression that I "should" upshift. Vibrations are the Cross Tourer strange. The whole transmission gives a very, nice, balanced impression.

The speed perception is therefore at least 20 to 30% lower than on a Varadero for example, compared at similar speed. For your perception you are doing 100 km/h, which turns out to be 120 km/h real speed… Slight turns you 'instinctively' estimate to take at 100 km/h suddenly appear a whole lot tighter. Nevertheless, the Crosstourer does not disguise its weight. In tight corners, it feels as if the weight is controlling the bike. As if the weight, acting as a kind of invisible giant hand is pushing the bike towards an direction you do not want to end up. The Yamaha Super Tenere feels, despite a similar weight, (much) more nimble.

And that 'automatic'?

On the Crosstourer Honda unveiled the 2nd generation of its semi-automatic transmission, the DCT. In addition, finally (since the first generation Pan European ST1100) traction control is returning back – but including an ‘OFF’ switch (which by the way won’t win any design prices with the appereance of an 1980 Honda Civic switch). I was tempted to test one of the bikes, especially for a DCT model with foot pedal. I have deliberately chosen not to do so, therefor I cannot give an objective judgment. The colleague motorcycle journalists in my group, indicated however, that the system really works flawlessly, but at a more sporty riding style on narrow twisty mountainroads in "A" position (fully automatic) just a fraction too slow to respond. According to Honda, makes the VFR1200F-DCT, 30% of European sales. I Can imagine that the system on the Crosstourer is well applicable. But not (yet) if you ever want to use the bike to play nice.

Pros vs. Cons

Comfort, transmission, power delivery, finish, handling, ergonomics: the concept "Crosstourer" is put together very well. With an introduction price of € 16,000,- in my country (The Netherlands) I think the bike is fairly priced towards its direct competitors. But ... every advantage has its disadvantage. Throughout the test (200 km) I did not achieve a fuelconsumption under 8 liters / 100km (1 to 12.5). Of course, we have been riding a little sportier as normal. And I was continuous riding 2 gears too low. But that does not justify an absurd fuelconsumption of 8 liters. Honda has the NC700X to show that it is able to develop an engine which combines good usability, with outstanding economics. With my injection Varadero I would achieve for the same route, same riding style, with ease, a consumption of 5 to 6 liters per 100 km. In an age where only liter of Euro 95 is priced just under € 2, -, a missed opportunity. That the V4 was generous on aspects on fuel consumption, we already knew of the VFR1200F which after 200 km begins to scream for a fueltap. Then there is that weight thing. The engine is despite the good weight distribution, just heavy. It will have a good straight¬ line stability on motorways though…

For example, the Yamaha Super Tenere with 276 kg is also heavy, but nevertheless feels like it is a featherweight. Even a 283 kg Honda Varadero feels 'different' in a positive way.

Fortunately (in comparison with the VFR1200F), the Crosstourers exhaustmuffler not only a beautiful part, but the muffler is designed so that the powerful sound of the V4 is experienced by our eardrums in full advantage. Does the exhaustsound of a VFR1200F reminds you to a BMW Boxer who is ashamed of his origins, the sound of the Crosstourer makes it a symphony. What a sound! Fabulous. You're crazy if you're on a Crosstourer with an aftermarked muffler.

A pro (with remark) are the panniers Honda offers. Robust. Fortunately no longer Givi, but Honda original. The remark refers to the topcase...: This can increase from 32 to 39 liters by a zipper with a flexible sort of waterproof foil. You leave the bike behind on a abandoned parking lot, evil villain comes along, zipper open, knife in the foil, and topcase damaged and empty. Even if you have left nothing of value in the topcase, it remains a very fragile construction for people who have something less good in mind for your legal property than yourself. A kind of open invitation. Pity, because this is the first road Honda with really beautiful, usable, reliable panniers.

A Provisional final conclusion?

Very honest .. Despite the 'cons' I would choose the Crosstourer in favor to the BMW R1200GS. The Honda just looks really good, it really is an headturner especially in the color 'Red Prommised Red’. Top ergonomics, the finish is superb, the transmission is so much better, vibrations are totally alien to the Honda, brakes are really TOP (I would like an delay on the rear brake though!) and most likely, the Honda will not fail or brake down. The protection of the fairing (like on the Varadero) is the best a allroad currently can offer (apart from the standard screen, go for the 145mm higher touring screen!). We have to wait and see what the new Triumph Tiger Adventure will offer. According to a Swedish journalist who rode an preproduction model, the Triumph is the best motorcycle in its class…

Scheduled for 2013 are also a new 1200 KTM Adventure and the new liquid-cooled BMW R1200GS. You can bet that BMW will do everything in order to maintain its leading position.

The question remains whether the Cross Tourer is the spiritual replacement for the XL1000V Varadero. I doubt. The engine is really that much (to much) alienated from the Varadero V2. It is really based up on other dimensions. I recall the press information shared by Honda itself: The bike is developed at the interface of 'all / onroad "and" sport / tour'; for which I personally compare it with a Pan European more than the "spiritual successor” of the Varadero. The Varadero has almost nothing in common with the Cross Tourer. Absolutely nothing. The last (current) model (last update: 2007) of the Varadero is however fully matured and on the whole, even in comparison with the Cross Tourer, not so bad. OK, he has no shaftdrive. But with lower fuel economy and also more than € 3,000, - cheaper… and offers the same comfort (even 2 up). The Varadero is probably the most underrated bigtrailbike and that is completely unjustified.

For those who think differently ... the Varadero is still available until September 2012. The last of the Mohicans ...
Thanks to Honda Europe for enabling this test report.
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Two Plugs screwed with this post 02-19-2012 at 10:22 AM
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Old 02-19-2012, 10:41 AM   #1136
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Pic = obligatory...

... Of course...

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Old 02-19-2012, 10:43 AM   #1137
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Thanks for your review Two Plugs. Like all reviews, I think much is dependent upon the biases and wants of the personal tester, with the best of course being a test ride by the potential purchaser. Overall, thanks for sharing your experiences!

How did you find the torque compared to the current Varadero? Were there any similarities between the seating position of the two?

The new CT intrigues me, but my 2008 Varadero has given me almost four wonderful years of trouble free touring and rough road travel and I can't really see myself parting with it.
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:56 AM   #1138
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Thanks Two Plugs, this was very honest and valuable review since it comes from a guy with a long experience of similar type of motorcycle (aka Varadero).

I found it very odd that fuel range seems to be that poor. You said 8.0 ltr/100km (35 UK mpg/29 US mpg). Even VFR1200F does much better.
If I remember correctly at EICMA Honda claimed fuel consumption to be somewhere near 6.0ltr/100km (46 UK mpg/38 US mpg).

Could it be just very inaccurate fuel gauge or did you actually measure the fuel consumption?
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Old 02-19-2012, 01:27 PM   #1139
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Thanks Two Plugs,

How many Km on the bike at that stage? I wouldn't be too worried about the consumption until it gets a few thousand on the motor. It's not looking like the most economical motor out there, but it does have 4 cylinders and all that piston surface area to move.

By the way he S10 is 268Kg Measured. (261Kg claimed) unless you were claiming weight WITH luggage.
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Old 02-19-2012, 02:25 PM   #1140
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... Of course...


you make it look like a 125. Either you're about 2m tall, or the bike is made for midgets
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