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View Results: Which would you consider to buy?
Honda's New CrossTourer X-Tourer 80 15.75%
Yamaha Super Tenere 195 38.39%
Triumph Tiger 800XC 220 43.31%
BMW 800GS 48 9.45%
They're all WRONG!! Nobody's building the right bloody bike.....explanation below!! 42 8.27%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 508. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-24-2010, 09:17 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
IMHO 800cc is a no go area, as seen with the R850GS, sales stopped at 1250 units or so (worldwide), although it was the smoother engine...
Which is absolutely proven wrong by the F800GS which was the hot adventure touring bike in the last two years.

I'd prefer an 800 over a 1200 any day if the manufacturers could come up with one that is still the right height / size and has shaft drive.
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Old 11-24-2010, 09:27 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Blue&Yellow
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but to me the Adv is a bike where form follows function and to me that's a beautiful bike.


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Old 11-24-2010, 10:37 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug
Which is absolutely proven wrong by the F800GS which was the hot adventure touring bike in the last two years.

I'd prefer an 800 over a 1200 any day if the manufacturers could come up with one that is still the right height / size and has shaft drive.
Do give us som sales figures of the F800GS !without F650GS! please?

And now the 1200...

You see, its not out of the blocks yet.

And people are running back to the shop with it in droves, "brand new bike only 200m" F800FGS for sale, all under 10.000, so even those who left the shop are partly back again.

Tells the story more illustrative as i ever could imho.

Allthough the elderly will state otherwise, they really want a labrador, not a pitbull :-)
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:06 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Do give us som sales figures of the F800GS !without F650GS! please?

And now the 1200...

You see, its not out of the blocks yet.

And people are running back to the shop with it in droves, "brand new bike only 200m" F800FGS for sale, all under 10.000, so even those who left the shop are partly back again.

Tells the story more illustrative as i ever could imho.

Allthough the elderly will state otherwise, they really want a labrador, not a pitbull :-)
Good link.
Yep, and lots of XTZ1200's as well, all under 5k miles.
XT1200Z for sale. It shows high numbers of STs for sale, considering they are in the first year of production while the 800GS is in its fourth year of production.

Good point RB3.
Interesting indeed.
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:36 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
Good link.
Yep, and lots of XTZ1200's as well, all under 5k miles.
XT1200Z for sale. It shows high numbers of STs for sale, considering they are in the first year of production while the 800GS is in its fourth year of production.

Good point RB3.
Interesting indeed.
Most of those XTZs were new or demo models? Looks like the dealers are just advertising.
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:15 PM   #111
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In Australia the F800's were a huge seller for the first year robbing sales of the 1200GS. SO BMW sales went down market so to speak.

Next year the G650GS went gang busters and the F800 tanked off its highs by about 35%.

So BMW buyers went downmarket (on average) again but at least BMW still had numbers.

This year, so far, the MTS and XT1200 have gone gang busters and BMW is now putting out ads targeting the YAMAHA directly, but not the MTS1200.

These two have knocked the DL1000 and the big KTM's out of the top ten and dented the 1200GS(A).

So time will tell how the MTS and XT1200 go down the track but in Oz at least KTM and Suzuki (DL1000 only) should be worried.

Next year BMW will face the Tigers. They will be preparing the ads now and they will be just as misleading as the YAMAHA targeted ads I am sure.

Only low Km Demos for sale at the moment from YAMAHA in Oz.

Maybe at some stage BMW Oz will have to look at a more realistic pricing Structure but maybe they will just ad more special coffee additive and all promise to be nice to everyone that looks like a sale, including Pirates.

Cheers
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Old 11-24-2010, 01:25 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klebs01
Most of those XTZs were new or demo models? Looks like the dealers are just advertising.
Exactly. But it shows that the waiting list is gone in less than a year. This bike is not available in the US yet, but I'm sure its waiting list will go as fast if not faster here.

The Tigers will be entering the US market at about the same time as the XTZs next Spring. It will be interesting to see how they will stack up. I'm betting on the Tigers today. And that's what I'm talking about here.

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Old 11-24-2010, 01:30 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamD
In Australia the F800's were a huge seller for the first year robbing sales of the 1200GS. SO BMW sales went down market so to speak.

Next year the G650GS went gang busters and the F800 tanked off its highs by about 35%.

So BMW buyers went downmarket (on average) again but at least BMW still had numbers.

This year, so far, the MTS and XT1200 have gone gang busters and BMW is now putting out ads targeting the YAMAHA directly, but not the MTS1200.

These two have knocked the DL1000 and the big KTM's out of the top ten and dented the 1200GS(A).

So time will tell how the MTS and XT1200 go down the track but in Oz at least KTM and Suzuki (DL1000 only) should be worried.

Next year BMW will face the Tigers. They will be preparing the ads now and they will be just as misleading as the YAMAHA targeted ads I am sure.

Only low Km Demos for sale at the moment from YAMAHA in Oz.

Maybe at some stage BMW Oz will have to look at a more realistic pricing Structure but maybe they will just ad more special coffee additive and all promise to be nice to everyone that looks like a sale, including Pirates.

Cheers
Graham
That's interesting. I don't think the G650GS sells well in the US. Not even close to F800GS numbers.

About the XTZs, it seems the waiting list has disappeared in Oz as well as it appears that has happened in Europe. Much shorter time frame than the time it took for the F800GS to reach this stage.

I'm assuming the Tigers will sell well everywhere. Better than the XTZs. Better than the 800GS.

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Old 11-24-2010, 03:40 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
That's interesting. I don't think the G650GS sells well in the US. Not even close to F800GS numbers.

About the XTZs, it seems the waiting list has disappeared in Oz as well as it appears that has happened in Europe. Much shorter time frame than the time it took for the F800GS to reach this stage.

I'm assuming the Tigers will sell well everywhere. Better than the XTZs. Better than the 800GS.

Lion
Traditionally in Oz, Triumphs are priced half way between The Japanese and the Euro's (BMW, Ducati).

BMW prices are insane. Triumph not so much. So it will have to be cheaper than the YAMAHA, with ABS and everything. (The XC). I will not consider it if it is similar in price, unless it just works for me and the YAMAHA doesn't for some strange reason.

Will be interesting to see the new prices. As of last Monday, when I rang a dealer who also sells the XTZ there was no info yet on Oz pricing of the Triumph (according to the dealer).

Cheers
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:29 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
Quote:
Ex Demonstrator
Different story :-)

I don't wanna bash the F800GS, i even tested it as a Sucessor of my 11, but the fast rompy engine was not my cup a tea, to tiring on a long haul, the XTZ will run happily at any rpm for hours on end without a hint of surging.
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Old 11-24-2010, 06:32 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R3B
Different story :-)

I don't wanna bash the F800GS, i even tested it as a Sucessor of my 11, but the fast rompy engine was not my cup a tea, to tiring on a long haul, the XTZ will run happily at any rpm for hours on end without a hint of surging.
Good point again. I've heard some people are successfully using a $50 fix on that fast engine. I've test ridden the F800GS and I agree that it is not a long haul type of bike (even with that fix) when compared to bikes with 1200 motors. It is very nice and competent bike though.

But I'm not talking about the F800GS on this conversation.
I'm talking about the Tiger 800 here, how it may offer better road manners and sell better than the XTZ. I'm looking forward to testing one. I will test ride the XTZ as well. But I'm betting on the Tiger.
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Old 11-24-2010, 08:37 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR
Good point again. I've heard some people are successfully using a $50 fix on that fast engine. I've test ridden the F800GS and I agree that it is not a long haul type of bike (even with that fix) when compared to bikes with 1200 motors. It is very nice and competent bike though.

But I'm not talking about the F800GS on this conversation.
I'm talking about the Tiger 800 here, how it may offer better road manners and sell better than the XTZ. I'm looking forward to testing one. I will test ride the XTZ as well. But I'm betting on the Tiger.
My bet is is the tiger 800 triple will have less on the low-end than BMW's 800twin (twin vs triple). I think the power curve will be closer to that of a sport bike. That said, 'road manners' is a broad subject on which individuals differ greatly when assigning weight to each category, if you know what I mean.

I could understand you being so ultra committed to the Triumph if you had actually test driven one, but aren't you jumping the gun just a bit with your expectations?
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Old 11-25-2010, 08:05 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by tremor38
My bet is is the tiger 800 triple will have less on the low-end than BMW's 800twin (twin vs triple). I think the power curve will be closer to that of a sport bike. That said, 'road manners' is a broad subject on which individuals differ greatly when assigning weight to each category, if you know what I mean.

I could understand you being so ultra committed to the Triumph if you had actually test driven one, but aren't you jumping the gun just a bit with your expectations?
I'm not committed to anything at this point. It is all speculation and specs riding. And as an Economist I know about uncertainties, as I've made many assertions about the future that never materialized. But I'm free to bet (especially if there is none of my $ involved) that the Tiger will be a positive surprise and a great addition to the adventure market.

Incidentally, here are the gear ratios (quoted from someone else, so I do not know if they are right) of the two bikes you mentioned:

Tiger 800//BMW 800
1.: 2,31 ////1.: 2.46
2.: 1,85 ////2.: 1.75
3.: 1,50 ////3.: 1.38
4.: 1,28 ////4.: 1.17
5.: 1,13 ////5.: 1.04
6.: 1,04 ////6.: 0.96

The BMW has a few more clicks of torque than the Tiger (62 vs 58) and the Tiger has a few more clicks of HP than the BMW (94 vs 85). Except for first gear, all the rest matches that torque vs power of the two motors. The Tiger being just a few pounds heavier.

Having said all of that, the main thing I wanted to bring to this conversation was not a BMW vs Tiger comparison at the 800 cc level. I was talking about how the Tiger 800cc may make a dent on the sale of the crowded 1200cc market. That was all.

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Old 11-25-2010, 10:18 AM   #119
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Hhhmmmm strange thread, not to be a troll but :

I can see comparing/debating over a Triumph Tiger 800XC (which is an F800gs lookalike, that would be a good comparison) with a BMW800gs, or even with a F650gsT,' or a Yamaha XT660 (which is what the OP had asked).

But this jumped to compare the 4 bikes to an ST10? Kind of an unrealistic comparison. The S10 would devour all 4 bikes for breakfast, and then eat a BMW R1,200gs for lunch, and perhaps a V4 CrossTourer for dinner?

It would be fair to compare the S10 to a BMW R1,200gs/GSA, or to the Honda V4 CrossTourer. Each class should be compared to each class in the same class. No?

When I was in the market for a dual purpose 250cc I compared Yamaha, Honda and Kawasaki, all in the 250cc class.

When I was in the market for a 650/800cc I compared the F800gs, a F650gsT, and a KLR650.

When I was in the market for a 1,200cc I compared a 1,200gs, a GSA and a KTM 990 adventure... until the ST came out (finally)

It seems that now every time a "bike comparison of anything" comes out everyone throws in the ST for good measure. It is compared to everything.

"Confused on what to buy: A Honda Eterno, a Vespa or a Yamaha Aerox R?" And the answer is, of course, "BUY THE SUPER TENERE!"

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Old 11-25-2010, 10:35 AM   #120
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Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Matteo, do you understand German?








Quote:
Originally Posted by Matteo2
Hhhmmmm strange thread, not to be a troll but :

I can see comparing/debating over a Triumph Tiger 800XC (which is an F800gs lookalike, that would be a good comparison) with a BMW800gs, or even with a F650gsT,' or a Yamaha XT660 (which is what the OP had asked).

But this jumped to compare the 4 bikes to an ST10? Kind of an unrealistic comparison. The S10 would devour all 4 bikes for breakfast, and then eat a BMW R1,200gs for lunch, and perhaps a V4 CrossTourer for dinner?

It would be fair to compare the S10 to a BMW R1,200gs/GSA, or to the Honda V4 CrossTourer. Each class should be compared to each class in the same class. No?

When I was in the market for a dual purpose 250cc I compared Yamaha, Honda and Kawasaki, all in the 250cc class.

When I was in the market for a 650/800cc I compared the F800gs, a F650gsT, and a KLR650.

When I was in the market for a 1,200cc I compared a 1,200gs, a GSA and a KTM 990 adventure... until the ST came out (finally)

It seems that now every time a "bike comparison of anything" comes out everyone throws in the ST for good measure. It is compared to everything.

"Confused on what to buy: A Honda Eterno, a Vespa or a Yamaha Aerox R?" And the answer is, of course, "BUY THE SUPER TENERE!"

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