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Old 07-05-2012, 08:07 PM   #3001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badbs101 View Post

I realize the IICE Air will work on the newer models because it addresses lean running but my question is about the forthcoming ICE Cool and Smooth. Will these products benefit the newer R1200's (camheads) or have the problems these devices solve been addressed by BMW software/hardware updates. I've read that BMW has improved their FI mapping/sensing on the newer models. Once again, just parroting what I have read.
The drivability of EFI systems does often improve over the years. And it improves to the point were it isn't too bad.

But the thing is, to achieve truly great drivability, throttle response, and power, the vehicle would never pass the EPA emissions certification. One way to describe the current state of the art is, throttle response improves to the point where it doesn't suck, while still passing the emissions certification.

While over time ECU software improvements have ironed out a lot of the roughness, or 'gaps in coverage' say, it still must do so in a way that passes the EPA certification.

There has been a reduction in poor throttle response. But 'reduction in bad' is different than saying it has good throttle response. I think this is a fair assessment. 'Doesn't suck' is some distance away from where it could be, you know?


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Old 07-06-2012, 08:54 PM   #3002
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:56 AM   #3003
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I just love it when I am a thread killer...
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:52 AM   #3004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCDakar View Post
I just love it when I am a thread killer...
Let me revive the discussion for you with this blab-fest. I don't want you sitting out in the cold, dark oblivion of web-space.

I finally received my IICE-Air after a long period of waiting. That's just how it goes here. I guess assembly has enough steps that they are slow to make. So be it.

At ~9 or 10K miles, I mounted the IA underneath the black panel on the left side on a metal tab that looks like it's for placards or relays or... I had it set on -20 and noticed an immediate change. The engine accepted throttle when cold much more easily. However, it would not hold steady revs below 3000 rpm any easier than before. I expected that.

The after firing was also eliminated. Too bad, I liked that and the tip-in throttle burble that also went AWOL. No biggies and I expected that, too, after reading some posts.

What I didn't expect is that the engine pinged more than before I installed the device. I think it may have to do with placement above/behind the left cylinder base. I initially read that placement wasn't critical, but I thought JJ just said something about placing the IA in the air stream. Correct me if I am wrong.

I also didn't expect the throttle to be so fluffy when transitioning from closed to advancing throttle. The engine felt too rich to me. So, I changed the IA to the -10 setting; or so I thought. I inadvertently set it to 0 offset. It runs much better, but I did just do a 12K service and replaced the plugs at about the same time. The pinging is less severe which got me to wondering if the ECU does some adapting even in open-loop. I doubt it, but that's how it acted when it pinged with less provocation.

BTW, these camheads do seem to dine on the plug electrodes. In 12K the gaps opened from 0.029" to 0.041" and the center electrodes were too worn to allow for re-gaping.

Long story short, I mean to test the -10 offset, but I like the way the engine accepts slightly advancing throttle (like when transitioning from braking to throttle) in stock trim more.

And, the experiment continues................
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Old 07-12-2012, 07:25 PM   #3005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania View Post

I finally received my IICE-Air after a long period of waiting. That's just how it goes here. I guess assembly has enough steps that they are slow to make. So be it.

I initially read that placement wasn't critical, but I thought JJ just said something about placing the IA in the air stream. Correct me if I am wrong.
I'm glad you didn't get irked, Erk.

Regarding placement, you are correct, placement isn't critical. JJ has commented about that.

Pinging eh? That's sure an odd thing to happen with a lower intake air temperature.


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Old 07-12-2012, 08:03 PM   #3006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
I'm glad you didn't get irked, Erk.

Regarding placement, you are correct, placement isn't critical. JJ has commented about that.

Pinging eh? That's sure an odd thing to happen with a lower intake air temperature.

Frankly, I was irked. I do think waiting 4 months for an ordered part is too long, but the construction photos went a long way to helping me understand the workload you created for yourself. Besides, I'm an adult and have learned to bite my tongue when I have nothing positive to say...well, usually.

Having said that, I'm now inclined to wait until you produce an abundance of parts before ordering the next device.

Yeah, the pinging thing is a mystery to me right now. Like I said, I will get around to trying the -10 offset. I suppose that when I get the GS-911 I will be better informed and could explain the condition. I really hesitate to get the ECU remapped by the dealer since they 'say' my bike runs stronger than the norm and I fear that the low octane map would reduce performance too much.

If you can provide me with a little of your wisdom then I would be in your debt. Right now, I think worn plug gaps provide enough ignition retarding that pinging is worsened. Color me grasping at straws.

Cheers.
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:58 PM   #3007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

The after firing was also eliminated. Too bad, I liked that and the tip-in throttle burble that also went AWOL.
You may be the first person to describe the reduction of the tailpipe 'backfire' as a negative.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

...I'm now inclined to wait until you produce an abundance of parts before ordering the next device.
The build rate is exceeded by the sales rate. There's a greater abundance of sales.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

What I didn't expect is that the engine pinged more than before I installed the device.
Your motor pings anyway? That doesn't sound right. Can you describe the pinging for us?


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

BTW, these camheads do seem to dine on the plug electrodes. In 12K the gaps opened from 0.029" to 0.041" and the center electrodes were too worn to allow for re-gaping.
That also doesn't sound normal. You know this to be typical with camheads? You might try a cooler plug.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

Yeah, the pinging thing is a mystery to me right now. Like I said, I will get around to trying the -10 offset.
Try the -30 offset as well. The throttle response may not be a too rich condition as you were thinking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

And, the experiment continues................
Is there anything else you're experimenting on that might be causing the normal pinging that happened before you installed the IICE Air?


Quote:
Originally Posted by erkmania

If you can provide me with a little of your wisdom then I would be in your debt. Right now, I think worn plug gaps provide enough ignition retarding that pinging is worsened. Color me grasping at straws.
Retarding the spark timing typically reduces pinging.


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Old 07-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #3008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
You may be the first person to describe the reduction of the tailpipe 'backfire' as a negative.
I know, I know. It's kinda old school. It only after fires for a couple of seconds before it ceased when closing the throttle. That fuel softened engine braking a little. But, the opening throttle burble helped me hear that I was opening the throttle gently and being smoooooth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
The build rate is exceeded by the sales rate. There's a greater abundance of sales.
Congrats to you and your success. Admirable. It's still frustrating to wait inordinately. I think I speak for others here. I'm sure you'll work out the kinks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Your motor pings anyway? That doesn't sound right. Can you describe the pinging for us?
Tell me about it. Pinging has mostly occurred when riding hard in the twistier bits. If I'm cruising and go WOT, there's little pinging. IOW, cruising on the freeway and then whacking the throttle elicits little pinging. If I hover around 5500 revs with runs to redline as I negotiate a tight road (CA N4 comes to mind) then the engine pings quite a bit at times. This happens at >80 degrees and hotter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
That also doesn't sound normal. You know this to be typical with camheads? You might try a cooler plug.
I did read that elsewhere here. I think one guy got his plugs replaced because he convinced BMW that they wore out too early and that the bike no longer met EPA standards. The plugs are a service replacement item at Service II (12K miles) intervals. I think BMW knows this bike has an engine that wears out plugs quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Try the -30 offset as well. The throttle response may not be a too rich condition as you were thinking.
I did. The throttle was too numb for my taste and the pinging seemed worse. Go figure. That's what made me think the computer was adapting while in open loop. It's as if the computer leaned out closed loop so much at -30 offset that tip-in pinging worsened. I know that seems wrong, but that's what it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Is there anything else you're experimenting on that might be causing the normal pinging that happened before you installed the IICE Air?
No/yes. I did just switch to Mobil 1 15w50 (@12k miles) to see if the oil consumption and pinging changed. No other mods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Retarding the spark timing typically reduces pinging.
Naturally. I miss one cup of coffee, make an errant statement and you catch me. Good job. I wish I'd remember that writing comprehension is as important as reading comprehension.

I admit that I was thinking about the edge gases compressing more because of the delayed spark to the point of stoichiometry that once the spark finally lit the main kernel the edge gases lit off violently.

I got there because the new plugs really seemed to reduce the pinging. And, new plug gaps are easier for the ignition to jump, hence earlier. That was the logic.

Thanks for replying PS.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:05 PM   #3009
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Do you really have to remove the tank to install an ICE Air on a 2009 R1200R?
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:05 PM   #3010
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Not that it matters, but you do need to remove the tank ( or really loosen it so you can lift it up) on a new Slant 4 K1200GT.

A pain in the butt, esp. with the plastic, but very much worth it.

I also kinda miss the after-run popping from the exhaust, even tho that comes from a lean condition.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:56 AM   #3011
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Yesterday

Small dump of info...in the "-20" setting riding for 115 miles of dirt/rock in 80 degree temps at 4,000 to 5,800 absl my '07 GSA seemed to respond more smoothly to throttle inputs [most riding in 2-4 gears, average speed 30 mph] on up and down grades. Subjectively it also seemed to have more "beans" when cranked on. It did however still rattle twice when starting out in first gear; this did not always happen, 4 bars on temp gauge...no real weigh carried, counting me perhaps 210 lbs with my bags. Hopefully WHEN the Cool and Smooth make an appearance the rattle will be vanquished...I will also try other settings..

Better than my Booster Plug? Perhaps, no popping and does seem stronger in pulling up grades and during roll-ons. Plus, I have other settings to experiment with. I am a happy camper
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:11 PM   #3012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark883 View Post

Just want to say, I was one of the very early purchasers of this device about a year ago. It was quickly and easily installed on my 1100GS, and it worked great. I also ordered an extra for my '06 K1200GT, that I put off installing until last night. I must warn any slant 4 owner this is not a pleasant install. At least on the GT, it involves removing all the tupperware except the nose / headlight plastic. You then either remove the fuel tank (which can damage the typical cheezy BMW quicktach gas line fitting) or lift it up enough to squeeze little hands in there and remove the airbox sensor plug, then plug in the ICE.

However, best I can determine, this effort is WELL worth the return. I believe the drivability of the GT is MUCH improved. The throttle used to be very 'snatchy' and it was very difficult to get a smooth shift, particularly when rolling back on the throttle.

I can't believe how much smoother this bike now runs. No hesitation when getting back on the throttle. Just smooth power delivery. Believe it or not, maybe I'm smoking something, but my GT is now a much easier bike to shift smoothly.
Thanks for the K1200 feedback, Mark!


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Old 07-25-2012, 03:25 PM   #3013
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Hey folks, I'm back! I was out bidding future jobs. (Keep your fingers crossed!)

I'll post an IICE update later tonight (Pacific time), and answer some emails and messages. I see the questions about foreign shipping, and I think that's finally sorted out.


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Old 07-25-2012, 03:32 PM   #3014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallowa View Post

Small dump of info...in the "-20" setting riding for 115 miles of dirt/rock in 80 degree temps at 4,000 to 5,800 absl my '07 GSA seemed to respond more smoothly to throttle inputs [most riding in 2-4 gears, average speed 30 mph] on up and down grades. Subjectively it also seemed to have more "beans" when cranked on. It did however still rattle twice when starting out in first gear; this did not always happen, 4 bars on temp gauge...no real weigh carried, counting me perhaps 210 lbs with my bags. Hopefully WHEN the Cool and Smooth make an appearance the rattle will be vanquished...I will also try other settings..

Better than my Booster Plug? Perhaps, no popping and does seem stronger in pulling up grades and during roll-ons. Plus, I have other settings to experiment with. I am a happy camper.
Hi there Phil. Do you mean that the bike didn't "rattle" (ping?) before the IICE Air? Or that after the IICE Air was installed, the "rattle" occurred much less often?


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Old 07-25-2012, 05:10 PM   #3015
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Unfortunately..After and Before

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
Hi there Phil. Do you mean that the bike didn't "rattle" (ping?) before the IICE Air? Or that after the IICE Air was installed, the "rattle" occurred much less often?















Yup, I was describing the performance of the bike with the IICE Air on this particular ride...small tidbit, I leave the bike idling while I dump my Old Man bladder [bladder 'shrinks' and prostate enlarges on ol' men, where is the justice there!]...this is not wishing to tempt the "Antenna Ring Demons" by turning the bike off, besides I have found that a few minutes of shut down only leads to heat sinking, so I keep it running for 3-4 mins max. The two times"it pinged" [my term is rattle] was after stopping for a couple of mins and then starting up in first gear, no slipping of clutch just full engagment and light throttle on roll-out. This was on level ground and with conditions mentioned in my post. 4 bars on temp gauge and 80 degrees ambient at about 5,000 absl.

No, the frequency of these few seconds of 'rattling' while first getting underway has not changed since I installed the IICE Air; it rattled in OEM trim and with the Booster Plug [ one of the reasons I bought the IICE Air was to try and eliminate the pre-ignition], BUT I have not tried the -10 position and that is next. The real test for me will be at above 90+ degrees air temp, loaded and lugging [very slow speeds often necessary for me to stay up-right but moving, [slipping the dry clutch is not an option unless I am faced with a real danger] while climbing a knarly grade, dirt of course. Rattling/pinging under these conditions I consider to be evil and to be avoided!

Life is good and I am certain I will find the best combo.
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