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Old 01-02-2013, 05:29 PM   #3181
rensho
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Sorry to see the bad news Lost.

I would also consider the cause being a very tight chain. I've seen quite a few refereneces to that on ktm/husa forums. Also, that counter sprocket is quite worn for its age/miles (tight chain). I know we've gone over this chain issue already, and I wasn't going to bring it up, but I'd hate to see you go thru this again, if that was the cause.

Stay positive.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:30 PM   #3182
Lost Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyborg View Post
Based on your experiences Lost, I'm sticking to standard countershaft sprockets. They are cheap and easy to replace on the trail if it came to that. I'm still running the stock type sprockets but don't have anywhere near the miles on it that you do and it's been all on knobbies. Thought I'd invest in the cush hub sooner than pay more later.


You're wiser than me.


I have used the DT rear sprockets before, they do last a long time. I went with the whole kit they sell with chain and sprockets, both to save cash and based on the Husa Adventure teams reviews on the DT gear.
Lots of variables to consider and I'll never know exactly why it happened, but in hindsight if you have a sprocket that's harder or equal to the countershaft than something has got to give. Maybe it was a bad sprocket, maybe I just pounded it too hard on pavement, maybe tires, whatever it is it shouldn't ever happen again once I get it sorted, get a cush hub and run standard sprockets.



Live and learn...and share here so it goes into the pool of info for folks to base their own decisions on.
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Old 01-02-2013, 05:43 PM   #3183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rensho View Post
Sorry to see the bad news Lost.

I would also consider the cause being a very tight chain. I've seen quite a few refereneces to that on ktm/husa forums. Also, that counter sprocket is quite worn for its age/miles (tight chain). I know we've gone over this chain issue already, and I wasn't going to bring it up, but I'd hate to see you go thru this again, if that was the cause.

Stay positive.


Yup, add it to the list of possible causes, and something for me to keep an eye on in the future, though I never ran my chain tighter than measured spec and let it get looser on my last Baja then short Death Valley ride. Mostly because I had no issues with the Regina chain hitting the tire and was too busy staying moving. If it aint broke don't fix it. It's actually pretty loose right now and has been for a while, probably just outside of spec on the loose side. Was on the list of things I was to be doing today to prep the bike. That photo of the chain that started the chain debate was kind of misleading.


Thanks for the support!
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Old 01-02-2013, 07:50 PM   #3184
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I swear that if you use Moly paste on the countershaft splines and the sprocket every 2000 miles your shaft splines will last 4 times as long. I use Honda Pro Moly 60:

http://compare.ebay.com/like/2008655...Types&var=sbar

I got 40,000 miles on my Husky with has the same reputation as KTM and Husaberg for soft splines that wear. Moly Paste is cheaper than replacing the countershaft.

I agree with others dual sporting with street style tires is harder on the drive train.
I run RADD cush hub on my dual sport wheel and stock hub on the off road wheel.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:16 AM   #3185
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Shit Finn! This sucks, but glad you caught it in time before your trip.

I've been harping on the use of cush drive hubs for dual sported bikes a while now, this confirms that I should keep doing so. Countershaft splines on the KTM XC4 and Husaberg 70° engines (same transmission) seem to last about 10-15k without them, and the repair is a big pain in the ass if you have an engine that runs perfectly fine otherwise.

I was also concerned with the DT countersprockets being harder than stock and was a bit weary of using them, but Barton now has over 35.000 kms on his bike using them exclusively - but with a cush hub! - with no wear. I think in your case they are not really the cause, just that once the splines have developed a tiny bit of slop, the wear rate increases dramatically.

Here are some posts from our build thread where we discussed measures that can be taken against countershaft wear. I think I am going to give the moly paste as recommended by Indy and others a try as well, it's cheap enough.

Sorry for the repost, but since the topic is so relevant to the Adventure Traveler thread I think it's a good idea anway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
Barton,

If you read this, next time you take off the countersprocket, can you take some pics of the output shaft? Most dual sported KTMs that I have seen with that kind of mileage have some serious wear here, even the 450/530 XC4 engine which is basically the same as the 70° Berg one, with the same clutch hub damper.

Since you have been running a cush drive hub from the beginning it should be a good indication whether they really help or not.

Dual sported 530 with 11k on it:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited View Post
I have seen this with aftermarket sprockets. The spline fit must be tight and you should grease it as well.
Once it wears with a sloppy fit it accelerates rapidly to destruction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
First time I hear grease being mentioned, what's the thinking behind that Dan?

I have seen people recommend some Loctite green or similar bearing locker, with the idea of preventing any fore and aft movement (the bolt and spring washer should stop side to side movement).

Another thing to keep in mind is that the hardness of the countersprocket should always be less than that of the countershaft, as one is easy to replace, while the other.... not so much!

In that regard the KTM CS are probably the best bet, here is some Rockwell scale testing done by Dave Peckham as he suspected bad heat treating on the shafts:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dpeckham,Nov 11 2010, 05:22 PM
I finally tested the hardness of my parts. Here's what I found (Rockwell C scale):

Original countershaft: 57
Second countershaft: 57
New countershaft: 58

New KTM sprocket: 54
Used KTM sprocket: 55
Used JT sprocket: 58

The sprockets were tested on the inside bearing area, close to the splines. The shafts were tested on the raised portion of the splines, inboard of the wear area.

So, there's not much of a story to tell here. Pretty consistent heat treating I'd say. The sprockets are NOT harder than the shafts. Kind of puts those theories to rest.

Dave




Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta View Post
The o-ring behind the spacer that goes into the countershaft was leaking recently. So I had the sprocket off 4 days ago. I checked the splines of the the countershaft and the ironman sprocket which has maybe 14,000km now. No discernible wear whatsoever on the splines. Need a third chain however... And a forth set of tires (cased a rear Michelin Desert in 4,00km, S.A. is rocky). Iromman sprockets are the bees knees. Cush hub = no worries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beta View Post
Sprockets- I can't recommend Dirt Tricks Ironman sprockets more highly. Yes they sponsored us and sent me a couple spares along the way so read whatever you want but the bottom line for me is this: 19,000 miles+ with ONE 42 rear sprocket and TWO 15 tooth front sprockets. In this time I went through 5 o-ring chains and 6 sets of rally tires. I have no visible wear on the countershaft and have never greased it or even given it much thought. I also like Iron Man's reusable washer, trying to reuse the stock front sprocket washer caused the o ring behind the counter sprocket sleeve to let go. I replaced it, added the Ironman washer, and never had another issue. I also recommend a real cushion hub, this shouldn't be new to to anyone. It probably has a lot to do with riding nearly 9,000 miles on pavement without issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparrowhawk View Post
It's basically two schools of thought. The bearing locker crowd intends to stabilize the shaft/sprocket interface to prevent wear. The grease crowd assumes preventing all movement is futile and lubricate the interface to prevent wear. I can't suggest one method over the other. I believe both have merit.

If you choose grease it is best to select one that won't get squeezed out under heat and pressure. A standard wheel bearing grease is probably not the best. Honda and Loctite make a lube designed for drive shaft splines which is a thick paste containing 60+% molybdenum disulfide powder in a grease carrier. Even when the carrier gets displaced the moly provides a solid surface lube. Krytox is another dry lube made for drive shaft splines by Dupont that is even better than moly at high temps and pressures but is quite expensive. It is a very long chain flurocarbon polymer along the lines of other Teflon lubes but the difference is in the chemistry.

edit: Here is an interesting read for high pressure grease/anti-sieze geeks http://www.sandsmachine.com/grease_t.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy Unlimited View Post
High pressure grease is what I use to protect my splines:
It is nasty sticky stuff but wont clean off without mineral spirits.
Description of open gear lubricants:
Penetrates to core of wire rope, minimizing internal friction. Travels on metal surfaces, displacing water to provide excellent rust protection. Contains no chlorinated solvents or O.D.P. Does not rub off. Equipped with extension tube. Withstands high pressures. Does not become brittle or break down while working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ktm950se View Post
***IF*** anything is to be applied to the OD of the shaft and/or ID of the sprocket, it should be Genuine Pro Honda Moly 60 Paste, or its equivalent.
You can buy it at many places, and here is just one of them, LINK.

Unlike grease, this is designed to withstand extreme pressure between splined parts.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:35 AM   #3186
Cruz
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Lukas, for a part that costs around $25-$30 as per the oem front sprockets, is it really worth the risk to use a part that costs little but is harder than a part that costs a lot and even more to replace? Surely it would take away any risk by sticking to oem or softer CS?

Saying that, I fitted the Cush hub to my 390 ASAP and it is quite noticeable the smoothness it puts into the transmission/drive system.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:42 AM   #3187
LukasM
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OEM countersprockets are probably the safer bet, but from what I have seen on various forums the cush hub is the deciding factor. Otherwise Barton would have much more wear, and there wouldn't be so many people who stuck with OEM CS yet still have worn out splines.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:11 AM   #3188
Indy Unlimited
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I think the point is to use a high pressure lube to protect the interface between the sprocket and the splines.
I also change my front sprockets quite often on all of my bikes a soon as I see any sign of hooking.
Once the sprocket and splines have play wear will occur at exponential rates. I used to use open gear lube and have switched to Moly paste since the great one recommended it and it is easier to apply with less mess.

Open gear tacky lubricant is better at sticking to the splines and many formulas use Moly:

http://www.belray.com/industrial/pro...ear-lubricants

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/CRC...ain-Lube-1HBK7

There are many more examples
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:29 AM   #3189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LukasM View Post
OEM countersprockets are probably the safer bet, but from what I have seen on various forums the cush hub is the deciding factor. Otherwise Barton would have much more wear, and there wouldn't be so many people who stuck with OEM CS yet still have worn out splines.
As per Lukas's beliefs, this is a KTM 525 shaft at 480 hours using only OEM sprockets all its life and following proper chain tension etiquette.

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Old 01-03-2013, 07:24 AM   #3190
rensho
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Thanks all for bringing this to light about the counter shaft. Obviously not a simple issue, and the collective wisdom is truly appreciated.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:02 AM   #3191
SoilSampleDave
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What is the story behind using a new washer everytime you swap a countershaft sprocket and/or the ironman washer?
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:03 AM   #3192
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Wow Finn....sorry to hear it. Having a pro make the repair is a good decision, given your predicament. It's a difficult process "the first time you attempt" especially without the proper tools. Better to practice on something that is not so critical to your immediate well-being.

My first thoughts when I saw the photo (catching up on this Thread) was either too tight a chain or a bad chain....meaning stuck link which does not pivot freely around the tighter turn of the drive sprocket. Also possible you pulled something into the turn (stick, pebble, etc) that caused some hard shock to make something give.

The CS is not going to do this to the spline unless there has been some lurching or hammering effect. Consider the possibility it could have been caused by something wrong inside the gearbox instead of the outside. Unlikely....but possible, and I have not seen it mentioned prior. Another great reason to have the crankcase split open and inspected.

If the DT sprocket was snug to the spline, I don't think it's the culprit. Sure, there is cause & effect. The hardened CS may have played an "effect" but it was most likely not the "cause". Stay on the hunt...

A Cush Hub is never a bad idea, though surprisingly, the Yamaha WR250R does not have one. And, many of them have pounded out 30,000 - 40,000 miles of DS torture without incident. Could be the spline shaft is simply too soft on the Bergs (I donno). It is odd, that this happened only after you swapped CS sprocket types. Maybe just a bad coincidence...?

Think I'll order me some Moly spline grease!

HF
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:25 AM   #3193
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Het Finn

Any thoughts about cryo treating your new countershaft?

You cominag back to La Paz?


D
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:30 AM   #3194
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Thank you all for the info and wisdom. I have to say, with the other bikes we have/had and their respective forums, the Husa community is hands down the best group of folks on ADVrider.

I think you're comments HF are probably spot on and goes with the rest of the wisdom laid down by Lukas, Indy and others. The wearing to the sprocket and spline is not circular or even, there's more wear on one side vs the other. Not sure what that means exactly but it would seem to support that there was some kind of shock event that started the wearing process.
On my recent Baja 1000 pre-run the course/riding conditions the Husa endured were brutal to say the least and it would make sense that something did happen on that ride that set off a series of events that lead me here. There's probably no smoking gun, but a combination of things and decisions I made, I can't blame any one thing but myself. I still will only run standard sprockets though, even after I can afford to get a cush drive.

Of course I knew I needed a cush drive from the beginning, all my other DS bikes have them, talked many times with Nancy about getting one, on a limited budget and making having lots of time to ride my first priority in life I've been keeping an eye out for a used one here on adv, ebay, husa forum etc for some time.... Now it's a more costly mistake by not making getting a cush installed sooner top priority. I do ride fairly aggressively both on and off road. Live and learn.
I hope my mistake helps others who DS their Husa to take appropriate action.

It's a sad day, as our bikes are our children and one of them is very sick..... I'm off to take the bike to Malcolm Smith Motorsports, a shop I trust to do the work.

Thanks again everyone.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:37 AM   #3195
Lost Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D K View Post
Het Finn

Any thoughts about cryo treating your new countershaft?

You cominag back to La Paz?


D


No, I'll be going with a cush hub, standard sprockets and moly lube.


La Paz is out of the picture now, we were to be leaving next week but with this sudden cost it's just not in our budget at all to go that far, a local Death Valley ride with me on the 650GS is more likely.
Too bad, would like to have meet up with you again, especially now that you have the Husa!
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