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Old 12-14-2010, 04:29 PM   #31
btcn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roose Hurro View Post
Taiwan is not China...


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Yes, but Kymco is building some of their bikes in china, although I know that they are a Taiwanese company. For example, the Agility 125 is now built in china, as well as many other models. They do it because it actually saves them big money. But their chinese manufactures are much better, they don't cut all those corners. Basically there are bad and good companies! It's not where they are made, but by who! I don't care if Kymco were built in hell by Kymco, they'd still be good bikes!
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:59 PM   #32
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Piaggio/Vespa builds some of their scooters in China. Some BMW motorcycle engines are built in China. Harley Davidson will soon be building engines in China. Honda, Suzuki, and others build some of their bikes in China.
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Old 12-14-2010, 05:59 PM   #33
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the Honda Elite is built in China, the Piaggio Fly, i saw a youtube vid that claimed Vespa is building some bikes there, and i believe some Yamaha Zuma's, too. i think Harley Davidson may be opening up shop there, too

gotta love the chinese....just keep the lead out


EDIT: oh wow. post beaten by 2 seconds

great minds think alike! =]
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by hugemoth View Post
Piaggio/Vespa builds some of their scooters in China. Some BMW motorcycle engines are built in China. Harley Davidson will soon be building engines in China. Honda, Suzuki, and others build some of their bikes in China.

Not Harley Davidson! THAT will piss me off! Come the hell on, I sure don't mind Honda, Yamaha, etc making their bikes in china, but HARLEY?

My freaking $550 light Harley leather jacket being made there is one thing, but now the bikes? They are one of the very very few motorcycle manufactures making bikes in America! What happened to that good old American steel? That is part of what makes them special, Harley is an American Company and has been so for the last 107 years!



To me, it has nothing at all to do with quality. I am sure that they will still be the same quality, or better. But it is a tradition to some riders. I know the majority of you aren't Harley guys, and will probably post some crap about this post. But if you aren't a Harley guy, then it doesn't effect you, so my opinion shouldn't either.

Ok, cool, I am glad that they are going to give Harleys to the chinese market. They deserve Harleys just as much as us. But Don't make em there!
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:43 PM   #35
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Harley = the new CFMoto



i think i want one of these to be my 250 scoot btw....
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:57 PM   #36
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Yes, Kymco, Honda and Piaggio are making some bikes in mainland China with their engineers on-site at the factory ensuring the product is being built to the required specification using the correct quality parts.

Lifan and one or two other manufacturers, do the engine manufacturing for the products they sell but in general they do not sell complete machines (scooter/motor/quad/side by side/ATV/snow machine). For this conversation, I will limit it to scooters and motorcycles.

CFMoto does SOME of the manufacturing of the engines in their scooters but not all of them. They contract with other manufacturers. This is where the problems start. Is this subcontracted manufacturer the same quality? Where do they get their parts? Who did the engineering or are they clones of clones? Did they use the lowest price bidder or the best quality? When the CFMoto units were impounded by the State of Mass. for failing to meet DOT standards, who manufactured them?

Lots of questions... this is one company and they are one o the most recognized names.

What about no-name china-scoots being dropped shipped all over America from websites that have been out of business for over a year??
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Old 12-15-2010, 12:04 AM   #37
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Yea. Why go the Chinese route when you can pay $200 upfront for a Taiwan scoot and never have to worry?
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:23 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techguy View Post
Yes, Kymco, Honda and Piaggio are making some bikes in mainland China with their engineers on-site at the factory ensuring the product is being built to the required specification using the correct quality parts.

Lifan and one or two other manufacturers, do the engine manufacturing for the products they sell but in general they do not sell complete machines (scooter/motor/quad/side by side/ATV/snow machine). For this conversation, I will limit it to scooters and motorcycles.

CFMoto does SOME of the manufacturing of the engines in their scooters but not all of them. They contract with other manufacturers. This is where the problems start. Is this subcontracted manufacturer the same quality? Where do they get their parts? Who did the engineering or are they clones of clones? Did they use the lowest price bidder or the best quality? When the CFMoto units were impounded by the State of Mass. for failing to meet DOT standards, who manufactured them?

Lots of questions...
yeah and thats the thing about China scoots. you really don't know where they are sourcing all the components and parts from, or from what companies. i know the quality of China scoots has been improving in some quarters, but other then a few makers like CFMoto its been clone after clone after clone from even the "better" makers. if even one china owned company were to step forward with a strong line of original model scooters to be distributed in America, i'd be surprised. and so far as distributors go even Lance has abandoned China scoots, of which they used to import and sell a crap load through Znen, but are now focusing on distributing lower rung SYM models. in fact rumor has it they might be the new distributor of SYM scoots in America, and the SYM brand may go away all together. at least in name

one of the things that sealed the deal for me when buying my Kymco was this video. i don't know if this is in Taiwan or China, but Kymco's China facotry has the same ISO 9001 (International Organization for Standardization) management / manufacturing certification all Kymco plants do. as you can see this isn't Kymco simply assembling an engine from sourced parts, but actually firing, casting, and molding hot metal into an engine, and machining it on site. the engine in a Kymco was made by Kymco from the ground up, as are other components. that impressed me and gave me confidence to buy :)




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Old 12-15-2010, 03:59 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by btcn View Post
Yea. Why go the Chinese route when you can pay $200 upfront for a Taiwan scoot and never have to worry?
Kymco scoot cost more than $200 over cheap Chinese scoot, well over.
Kymco scoot owners have surely suffer unexpected mechanicals, just as Chinese scoot, just not as many Kymco scooters sold as cheap Chinese scoots.
Never have to worry? Not likely.
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Old 12-15-2010, 02:58 PM   #40
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Kymco scoot cost more than $200 over cheap Chinese scoot, well over.
Kymco scoot owners have surely suffer unexpected mechanical, just as Chinese scoot, just not as many Kymco scooters sold as cheap Chinese scoots.
Never have to worry? Not likely.
True, it is not $200 premium for Kymco over many China-scoots. It is much more. But, IMHO, its is less than the cost of the major repairs a large enough percents of china-scoot owners. I was going to call them "china-scoot riders" but they can't ride because the scooter needs to be pushed. I am sorry, but the lion share of the low-end china scoot owners i know have given up and bought better scooters. There are "better" china-scoots but I know I am not going to risk my money.

The Lance CaliClassic MSRP is $1995 << the "best " China -scoot? Where's the price differential
SYM Fiddle II MSRP $2298
Kymco Agility 125 MSRP $2098
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Old 12-15-2010, 03:32 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by DudeClone View Post
if even one china owned company were to step forward with a strong line of original model scooters to be distributed in America, i'd be surprised.
Keeway is a company that does exactly that. Great well built models, excellent build quality, and a 2 year factory warranty. They have a great parts inventory, and people are doing some incredible things on them. Check out some of the real ADV stories on their website...

http://www.keewaymotor.com/press_room.html

http://thescooterscoop.blogspot.com/...y-arn-150.html

If I could just get one of the 100cc two strokes they sell in Europe...
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:36 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by MOPED MEDIC View Post
Keeway is a company that does exactly that. Great well built models, excellent build quality, and a 2 year factory warranty. They have a great parts inventory, and people are doing some incredible things on them. Check out some of the real ADV stories on their website...

http://www.keewaymotor.com/press_room.html

http://thescooterscoop.blogspot.com/...y-arn-150.html

If I could just get one of the 100cc two strokes they sell in Europe...
oh, well they sound interesting. i do like that Silverblade. pretty sharp. and the Cub 125 Sport looks interesting, but i don't think its sold here

i would love to recommend some good, low cost scoots like these to friends and potential riders (just had a neighbor of mine buy a Kymco after seeing me ride mine day after day), but unfortunately dealers can be few and far between atm. and in Cali, with all the CARB rules, selection is even less so

i just wish all these drop shippers would go away. i have told some people i know to go ahead and buy a china scoot if that is what they want, but from a couple of local dealer i know who will pdi them right, and stand behind them 100%. i know Znen makes some ok models, but its still hit and miss for the average consumer who isn't a hobbyist mechanic. so the more CFMoto's and Keeway's and others with similar ambitions who can get into solid dealerships, the better. in my neighborhood i count three no name, non running china scoots within five blocks of me. one i can see from my balcony, sitting out in a carpot rusting. one is a trike that sits at the side of someones house, and another is a girls who lives in my apartment complex. her engine leaks oil like mad, and the electrical system is wacked out. all these people left high and dry and without a warranty after being promised the moon and stars from some drop shipper. their should be a law against it. like, seriously....

i'm in favor of ANYTHING that gets America scooting. the more, the merrier. but all this drop shipping business, while good for some, can be very misleading for the average consumer. lets get some good low cost scoots on shore, back them with service, warranties, and parts availability, and spread the good word about being on two wheels. i'm in for the long haul :)

hey, tom hanks has a "scooter" movie coming out in july. looks like a hit, has julia robets, and if gas prices creep up over the next year, who knows? trouble in the scoot they put hanks on for the movie looks kind of geeky. but then again, its a scooter! so thats part of its charm, right?

right?

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Old 12-15-2010, 05:56 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by DudeClone View Post
i would love to recommend some good, low cost scoots like these to friends and potential riders (just had a neighbor of mine buy a Kymco after seeing me ride mine day after day), but unfortunately dealers can be few and far between atm. and in Cali, with all the CARB rules, selection is even less so

i just wish all these drop shippers would go away.
The Goccia is one hell of a scooter. I'm going to get an Outlook and hopefully ride it around South America next winter. It gets great reviews on some of the Italian forums.

Little by little the drop shippers and distributors are disappearing. For that you can thank the EPA. They have been seizing container loads for the last few years, and that's the main reason a lot of the distributors are gone.

If States would enforce their own Motor Vehicle dealer licensing laws, you would see all of the drop-shippers disappear.

The problem with so many of these "Chinese scooters" is that they are the direct result of people making the decision that the best way to buy anything is to buy the cheapest one you can possibly find.

Motovista screwed with this post 12-15-2010 at 06:05 PM
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Old 12-15-2010, 06:06 PM   #44
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OK, maybe I underestimated the price. But you could basically get a used one for close! I am telling you that a bike that costs $800 at your doorstep with a 150 cc engine is not going to be the best quality. But look, a Kymco is going to hold up so much better than a chinese scooter over the years. If someone can show me a dirt cheap 250 cc chinese scooter with more than 30,000 miles on it with just basic maintenance such as oil changes, I then maybe you will convince me. But until then, no more for me! Unless they are good known companies, of corse.

Oh, and thanks for the cool video DudeClone! It is interesting to see them building scoots and engines.
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:11 PM   #45
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It's not a scooter but my Chinese Lifan 200cc dual sport motorcycle now has over 24,000 on the clock and the only things I've done is one new spark plug, oil changes, valve adjustment, a battery, chain, and several tires. It's never missed a beat in all those miles. 4 of my local friends have the same model bike and all have been trouble free. All were drop shipped BTW.

Quote:
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OK, maybe I underestimated the price. But you could basically get a used one for close! I am telling you that a bike that costs $800 at your doorstep with a 150 cc engine is not going to be the best quality. But look, a Kymco is going to hold up so much better than a chinese scooter over the years. If someone can show me a dirt cheap 250 cc chinese scooter with more than 30,000 miles on it with just basic maintenance such as oil changes, I then maybe you will convince me. But until then, no more for me! Unless they are good known companies, of corse.

Oh, and thanks for the cool video DudeClone! It is interesting to see them building scoots and engines.
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