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Old 12-18-2010, 04:32 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by btcn View Post
I bet if Honda really wanted to sell a lot of bikes, they would bring back the Cub, but modernized, roadworthy and with a 50 cc-150 cc version, and sell it for a good affordable price like they used to . But retain the old Horizontal "50" type engine that they sold more than anything.
Certainly when (not if) gas gets over $5 per gallon, they would sell a bunch, but would a 50-150cc haul a typical fat-ass American around? Back in the late 60s - early 70s Americans weren't nearly as heavy as we are today.
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Old 12-18-2010, 04:44 PM   #77
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Wow! Finally a real expert on Chinese scooters. Please give us some background. Which brands have you actually tested and exactly what failed on them?
yeah i know, huh?



discussing chinese scooters is always a bit of a minefield, i'm afraid. i always recommend if the person can afford it look elsewhere or for something used, but if for whatever reason a person doesn't want to, i can only try to show them a way to a better seller with a better price, and maybe a chinese make where the chances of getting a better chinese scooter then another may lie

the thing about chinese scooters is, as much as i don't trust the quality, its hard to argue with owners who have 15k, 20k, and 25k miles on theirs, and say they have had little or no problems mechanically. is this the norm? probably not overall, but its out there. and for some, even if they do have problems, it was worth it to them because it comes back down to price. $1000 for a 150cc that went 15K miles so far? maybe it is cheap, and cheaply made. and well, maybe some people just don't care and want a cheap scooter. as i've read in some forums from chinese scoot owners: "so what? you bought one scooter for $4000 that will last three times as long as mine, but i'll just buy 3 scooters over time and still come out paying less then you"

that is the reasoning of many, and if they are riding along fine i really can't tell them how to spend their hard earned money and on what, or put down what they ride. and if they have 10,000 nearly trouble free miles on a china scoot, paid $800 for it, and are happy, happy, happy....even if it breaks tomorrow...i can see why

chinese scooters are a complete crap shoot imo. more knowledgeable scooter people understand and know this. they know what they are buying. an inexpensive gamble. if they lose, they lose. lesson learned. less knowledgeable buyers unfortunately don't know this, and when they lose it hurts. because they expected a good scooter and got trash, or unwittingly bought trash. but not ALL chinese scooters turn out to be complete trash. its just not true, so i can't tell anyone it is

buyer beware, sure. but buy and ride what you want, or can afford. maybe a hard lesson will be learned, or maybe it will turn out ok. it's easy to say to someone "they are all junk. buy Jap or Taiwanese or Italian." but its not my money, so who am i to say anything like that? if someone wants a chinese bike and are intent on getting one i can just point them to some which have better reputations them others, some good pdi advice, a list of parts to replace right off the bat, a decent seller, scootdawg forums, and tell them "good luck"

but telling them to buy a Honda really doesn't do anything for them at all
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Old 12-18-2010, 05:55 PM   #78
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I would like DeBinChe to actually try to help people by posting which Chinese brands and models he has personal experience with and what went wrong with them, in other words be specific. By pointing out the specifics he could save someone a good deal of money and frustration. I suppose the Chinese guy who bought any one of a number of American cars during the 70s and 80s might say that all American cars are crap, not realizing that there may be a huge difference between brands or even models of the same brand.

I am a long time motorcycle mechanic and very experienced with the older Vespa scooters but I've only ridden one Chinese scooter in my entire life. My experience with Lifan and Hensim motorcycles lead me to believe that there may be some decent quality Chinese scooters out there. I'd like to know which are good and which are bad and why.
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Old 12-18-2010, 06:03 PM   #79
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DudeClone, you forgot one other thing....

If they have a little knowledge of how to turn a wrench, they can usually fix the issues of these cheap scooters without spending too much $$$.

And DaBinChe, if it's coming out of China, It's Not from Japan or Taiwan.

Yes there are companies that contract out to the Chinese manufacturers, the difference between whether the label says Sony or S0ny, is the QC end of things. Sort of like the "Made In USA" back in the 1960's when there were cheap electronics that were "Made In Usa" Usa Japan.

I do love your hypocrisy of buying a chinese Honda Elite. If Chinese products are so bad as you put it, why did you buy one?
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Old 12-18-2010, 06:14 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Ken11 View Post
...

So I was wandering the general quality on these. Are they crappy bikes, or are they OK? I certainly don't expect anything near Japanese quality, but would they get the job done for this? ...
I've had a Chinese scooter, an Apollo 250 - basically, an upscale Jonway. I got it in Feb 2008, and have over 8k on the meter.

A suggestion is to run over to http://scootdawg.proboards.com and browse around. Ya gotta be willing to work on it yourself cause the dealers who'll work on them are few and far between. You'll find a lot of talk about a PDI (post delivery inspection). You basically take the plastic off and check every nut, bolt, put dialectric grease on all electrical connections. Took me 2 days to do this and I haven't had a single problem. It also got me really edumacated about the inner workings of the scoot.

It does 60 without breaking a sweat, 70 if I ask, and gets about 65mpg. So far it's been a lot of fun. Cost $1,800 to my driveway.

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Old 12-19-2010, 06:30 PM   #81
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One of my jobs is fixing chinese scooters...I've pretty much seen it all. Everything from pot metal use to non-fuel line used as fuel line to stripped treads on a brand new bike to incorrect bolts to parts not being the same on the same bike coming from the same factory to lines going where they are not suppose to, you name it and even things you wouldn't believe can occur does occur. I've worked on hundreds if not thousands of these chinese scoots so yeah that makes me more of an expert then most of the folks on here. I can't count how many blown motors I've seen and rebuild, carbs I'd had to fix/replace, electrical issues of every kind. I really can't name a specific thing that goes wrong with chinese scoots cause my experience shows that anything and everything can go wrong with them.

That $1k new scoot that folks think they got for so low will more then catch up to them in repair bills and headaches and down time.

The most mileage that I have ever seen on one is 26k miles which is most certainly not the norm. The guy was an older fellow and he rode the thing very conservatively...in the bike lane conservative so that was how he got so many miles on the thing. But boy when I had to do work on that bike everything was literally about to fall apart. But for the most parts chinese scoots have a shelf life of up to 5k miles before the repairs cost more then the value of the bike. It is actually very rare that a bike will go 1k miles without having some type of issue, needing some type of work.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:35 PM   #82
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Your posts are worthless unless you provide make, model, and problem information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBinChe View Post
One of my jobs is fixing chinese scooters...I've pretty much seen it all. Everything from pot metal use to non-fuel line used as fuel line to stripped treads on a brand new bike to incorrect bolts to parts not being the same on the same bike coming from the same factory to lines going where they are not suppose to, you name it and even things you wouldn't believe can occur does occur. I've worked on hundreds if not thousands of these chinese scoots so yeah that makes me more of an expert then most of the folks on here. I can't count how many blown motors I've seen and rebuild, carbs I'd had to fix/replace, electrical issues of every kind. I really can't name a specific thing that goes wrong with chinese scoots cause my experience shows that anything and everything can go wrong with them.

That $1k new scoot that folks think they got for so low will more then catch up to them in repair bills and headaches and down time.

The most mileage that I have ever seen on one is 26k miles which is most certainly not the norm. The guy was an older fellow and he rode the thing very conservatively...in the bike lane conservative so that was how he got so many miles on the thing. But boy when I had to do work on that bike everything was literally about to fall apart. But for the most parts chinese scoots have a shelf life of up to 5k miles before the repairs cost more then the value of the bike. It is actually very rare that a bike will go 1k miles without having some type of issue, needing some type of work.
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:43 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Sportsman Matt View Post
DudeClone, you forgot one other thing....

If they have a little knowledge of how to turn a wrench, they can usually fix the issues of these cheap scooters without spending too much $$$.

And DaBinChe, if it's coming out of China, It's Not from Japan or Taiwan.

Yes there are companies that contract out to the Chinese manufacturers, the difference between whether the label says Sony or S0ny, is the QC end of things. Sort of like the "Made In USA" back in the 1960's when there were cheap electronics that were "Made In Usa" Usa Japan.

I do love your hypocrisy of buying a chinese Honda Elite. If Chinese products are so bad as you put it, why did you buy one?

I didn't say coming form Japan or Taiwan, I said Japanese or Taiwanese companies. I bought a honda product and that is the difference. My point is don't get something from a chinese company coming out of china.

What you are saying is like saying that the honda cars coming out of the southern states is not made by honda but instead made by GM...don't be mistaken it is every bit a honda. Maybe you don't understand mfg. Here is an example: when I used to work for Intel in their FAB, they had factories all over the world including undeveloped countries. How they make chips is the same in very location, the processes/procedures/specifications were identical. So it did not matter if your intel chip was from their headquarters in Santa Clara or Isreal or any location it was the same. This is how Honda does things too their mfg plants world wide does things identically to each other, to the standards of Honda specifications.
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:15 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by hugemoth View Post
Your posts are worthless unless you provide make, model, and problem information.
way too much to list

Are you aware that there isn't that many chinese manufacturers of scooters? You can easily find a half dozen "brands" coming from one manufacturer. The best example of this is the Fly ilbello and it's various versions...just about every American "brand" chinese scooter company has this very same bike from the same manufacturer, they are just badged/"branded" differently here in the US. This is cause the US brands aren't manufacturers only importers. These importers (independent of each other) go to this manufacturer and orders a hundred in X color with Y options and put on their badge/"brand" and brings it over here.

You see the problem is not like normal vehicle problems where a specific vehicle let say toyota prius, with the gas pedal getting stuck from the floor mats, has a specific problem and can be easily address. The problem with chinese scoots is that it is completely unpredictable as to what each individual bike has issues with...like a box of chocolate you never know what you're gonna get. So let me repeat there is no specific issues with any specific model it really is a roll of the dice. Because if there were a specific issue with a specific model this implies that there is some underlying issue like design flaw or manufacturing flaw. In the case of chinese scoots the flaws mainly has to do with the whole manufacturing process, there is no consistency/repeat-ability anywhere so problems will arise from any thing.
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:10 PM   #85
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There is some truth to this, but this is only true on the low end crappy cheap chinese scoots. But I think that there are some good bikes coming from china, like lifans and the high end companies.


Oh, and hugemoth, do you have any info on Harley building their bikes in china at any point? I have heard about this, but I don't know where. This is the only thing that CANNOT be built in china! Harley motorcycles are the American legend, they are one of few motorcycles being built in America, actually one of very few major American companies other than Ford. Point is, DaBinChe, sure quality may be the same, but it won't be a true Harley. This is to your other post, saying Hondas built in America are still Hondas. This is true. But it is going to be different with Harleys, I mean that is one of the reasons we Harley riders pay $20,000 for a cruiser when a Honda VTX 1800 is like $12,000.

Yes, the Honda doesn't feel quite the same, but this is a factor. I mean what happened to that good old Milwaukee steel? They have been made here for over 107 years, and know they are going to change that?

It is already uncool that my $500 Harley jacket is made there!. But I do have understanding in why this is a possibility, sales. They will reduce costs BIG TIME. But they don't even realize what they are going to start! Oh boy, all those bikers who stay true to good old American Harleys and make fun of rice burners! They are going to loose so many sales it might put the 107+ year old company to an end!

But this is unlikely, hopefully they will come to their senses!
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Old 12-19-2010, 09:37 PM   #86
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My Zinda wasn't too bad. I paid $400 for it in June, and it was less than a year old. It did the job...





Sometimes it didn't do the job...



Yep, "new" crank, new piston and barrel, not sure if they swapped the head too... all for $100.

It's probably worth replacing the wheel bearings if you have one.... I couldn't get over 85kph Vmax with this bearing



They chew out the cush rubbers a bit too...



And they aren't very good for carrying gear when you have to loan half your occy straps to someone else



They aren't bad off the beaten track....



But they get you there....



But best of all.... having mine made me go and buy a KTM 950 se when I got home....

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Old 12-19-2010, 10:40 PM   #87
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^ holy cow



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaBinChe View Post
One of my jobs is fixing chinese scooters...I've pretty much seen it all. Everything from pot metal use to non-fuel line used as fuel line to stripped treads on a brand new bike to incorrect bolts to parts not being the same on the same bike coming from the same factory to lines going where they are not suppose to, you name it and even things you wouldn't believe can occur does occur. I've worked on hundreds if not thousands of these chinese scoots so yeah that makes me more of an expert then most of the folks on here. I can't count how many blown motors I've seen and rebuild, carbs I'd had to fix/replace, electrical issues of every kind. I really can't name a specific thing that goes wrong with chinese scoots cause my experience shows that anything and everything can go wrong with them.

That $1k new scoot that folks think they got for so low will more then catch up to them in repair bills and headaches and down time.

The most mileage that I have ever seen on one is 26k miles which is most certainly not the norm. The guy was an older fellow and he rode the thing very conservatively...in the bike lane conservative so that was how he got so many miles on the thing. But boy when I had to do work on that bike everything was literally about to fall apart. But for the most parts chinese scoots have a shelf life of up to 5k miles before the repairs cost more then the value of the bike. It is actually very rare that a bike will go 1k miles without having some type of issue, needing some type of work.
i don't think your experience and mechanical expertise can be doubted, nor your observations about cheap parts, cheap metal, and cheap hardware. thats why the scooters are cheap. poor build quality, fit and finish, you name it

but some people are cheap. or just want a scooter for a year, or do in fact want a mechanical project. many see scooters as disposable items, things to buy and use and throwaway. others ride one or two hundred miles a month. and so they get the cheapest scoots around. cheap plastics, cheap parts? they don't care

the original poster in this thread has a friend who wants a BIG 250cc. even after all the other recommendations for used scooters, smaller brand name bikes at close to the same price, and warnings against.....his friend is still considering a chinese 250cc. some people in this thread (and at scootdawg) have 250cc scooters and have over 12,000 trouble free miles on them over two years. they paid $1700 or so for them. so even if they will have more problems then the bike is worth someday soon....they figure "hey, time for a new scooter!"

some value quality more then others. some want long lasting durability and a high mileage, low maintenance machine. yet others will just say "$5000? no thanks. i paid $1600 and i'll do it again"

and its hard to tell them don't do it if a BIG 250cc is what they want or need, but can't afford otherwise or are too cheap (frugal) except to buy a chinese scoot

plus don't forget, not everyone has a dealer nearby who has brand name scoots. and some people live in rural areas where private party used selections are low, or nothing at all. i live in an area where i can go get a low mileage 2005 Piaggio BV 200 for $2000 tomorrow, or a lower mileage 2006 Kymco People 250 for under $1500. and their is more to choose from. but for many that is not the case. so a new scooter delivered to their door is an attractive offer. especially if they are mechanically inclined
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DudeClone screwed with this post 12-19-2010 at 10:46 PM
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:35 AM   #88
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I remember Zongshen is the company that will be making HD as well as Piaggio (vespa) but don't know the details. The article implied that the HDs will be for the Asian market, at least at first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zongshen
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/new...ket/index.html

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Oh, and hugemoth, do you have any info on Harley building their bikes in china at any point? I have heard about this, but I don't know where.
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Old 12-20-2010, 04:44 AM   #89
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well, Zongshen certainly know how to build a lot of scoots. i would think manufacturing for HD and Piaggio would improve the quality of Znen scooters, too. if the company wants it to

how this would happen, idk? i doubt the same quality control that goes into a Piaggio model would be used for the average Znen, but if they can start using some upgraded parts and components sourced from or copied from these bigger players, who knows?
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:32 AM   #90
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I remember Zongshen is the company that will be making HD as well as Piaggio (vespa) but don't know the details. The article implied that the HDs will be for the Asian market, at least at first.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zongshen
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/new...ket/index.html

Thanks. I just hope they keep those Harleys in the chinese market. I won't buy a new Harley if they start building them there, only keep my current and buy used. It is ok with me for other bikes like Honda, but as I said, Harley just won't be the same.

Harley is probably suffering in America due to the economy and such, but that is no excuse to go BUILD bikes in china. There is a big difference between giving Harleys to the chinese market for chinese people to ride, that is great! So they can enjoy Harleys and it will help their profit.

But we all know how many problems this is going to cause with the die hard Harley fans like me. I am not just for Harleys, but I love riding Harleys. I love that big powerful twin feel, that rumble with loud pipes, and that powerful torquey motor that just keeps rumbling forever. That chrome idle and American machine make these things a dream to ride! Just like all the BMW guys love their beamers, I love Harleys.

Don't get me wrong, I also LOVE all other bikes. If it its got 2 wheels and a motor, I'll love it! I'll ride a Honda, Beamer, Kawasaki, Ducati, etc. But Harleys are a part of my life. I love to tour on them.

If Harley really wants to make some more money, they need to get into the SMALL DISPLACEMENT motorcycle industry. Yes, exactly. They need to make a cool 250 cc V twin. Think about it. If a beginner who has never ridden 2 wheels wants a bike, what are the chances he or she will feel confident on a 1600 cc 850 pound monster bike? They will obviously go buy a Honda Rebel or Ninja 250. They should make a 50 cc bike with a real V twin as well.

And for any Harley riders, how cool would a new XR 1200 WITH a VROD ENGINE be?

But we all know what the hard core Harley riders are going to say when their bikes can be considered not only rice burners, but discount ride burners!

btcn screwed with this post 12-20-2010 at 09:37 AM
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