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Old 12-24-2012, 10:00 AM   #1816
jdrocks OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatHareafter View Post
Thanks for the fun thread. I've been lurking for a while now and enjoying all the design thoughts and pictures.

For some reason I woke up this morning thinking about your motor mount loosening even with red loctite. Could part of the reason it loosened be that the engine heat plasticizes the loctite allowing the bolt to then loosen?
glad you're enjoying the build. there's not enough heat at the motor mount for that to be a cause. the cop motor version of the ptwin is a very smooth runner, near vibration free, so i don't view vibration as a cause either. the same bolts have loosened on my ER6 framed builds also, so the problem isn't specific to the frame type.

even though the motor has through bolt mounts in addition to the left and right front mounts, there must be enough rotational energy transmitted to this particular mount to cause it to loosen. i haven't seen other reports of these mounting bolts loosening, so it might be somehow related to the way these bikes are ridden, particularly offroad.

i need to check them more often.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:48 AM   #1817
DustyOne
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JD........you could write the book for "severe usage" maintenance requirement on this bike.
BUT even RED Loctite has it's limitations.
(off road racers have been known to put the welder to motor mount bolts/nuts in extreme situations)

Prolly a better "note" to add to your mnx manual might be to "retorque" those pesky bolts on a more frequent schedule:n

Hey, right or wrong IS NOT what is important
BUT instead, for the situations that you have put these bikes in-7-whatever works has become the new norm
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:01 PM   #1818
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by BeemerWolf View Post
JD........you could write the book for "severe usage" maintenance requirement on this bike.
BUT even RED Loctite has it's limitations(off road racers have been known to put the welder to motor mount bolts/nuts in extreme situations)
the bike does get used for sure, and my on-the-gas, off-the-gas offroad riding style doesn't help either. RED gel failure was a surprise, i've rarely had failure with BLUE, never RED.

from a lake campsite in southeastern BC in '09 on the way down from points north, i'd come all the way across from Bella Coola that day, and beat the heck out of bike once again on a long rocky logging road into the lake. nobody else there, wonder why.



the bike had felt a little buzzy, and with 30 minutes of daylight left, i started looking over the bike and found the main M12 bolt loose, one missing M8, and one loose M8 that was about to fall out, all on the same right front motor mount. whatever the forces at work, the stresses are directed at that mount. the motor mount connections are structural on these frames, there could be consequences if you lose the bolts.

the bike is just dirty in the photo, but two days later it would be upsidedown under a truck in Montana, not lookin' too sharp then.
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Old 12-24-2012, 02:10 PM   #1819
TooFast
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You're probably on top of this, but just in case, if you took out both your front top left and right motor mount bolts only, do you have any gaps between the motor and frame mounts? A bit of shimming may make these areas solid and eliminate some of the stresses your bike is seeing. Might be worth a check.

Just my .02, spend it anyway you want

P.S. loosening all the mounts will expose your wiggle room and repositioning the motor/frame relationship may find a happy home, albeit of manufacturing tolerences is my experience, that'll be .03 pls

TooFast screwed with this post 12-24-2012 at 02:41 PM
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Old 12-24-2012, 03:13 PM   #1820
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by TooFast View Post
You're probably on top of this, but just in case, if you took out both your front top left and right motor mount bolts only, do you have any gaps between the motor and frame mounts? A bit of shimming may make these areas solid and eliminate some of the stresses your bike is seeing. Might be worth a check.

Just my .02, spend it anyway you want

P.S. loosening all the mounts will expose your wiggle room and repositioning the motor/frame relationship may find a happy home, albeit of manufacturing tolerences is my experience, that'll be .03 pls
there was a recall on early Versys frames for gapped motor mounts, but i've had these bolts loosen on ER6 frames too. i've never found any manufacturing defects on the frames i've had, although some of the robotic welding is pretty crude.
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Old 12-24-2012, 05:38 PM   #1821
DRjoe
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Is there paint on the surface of the mounts?
Paint on the compressed sections of the mount can cause bolt loosening.
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Old 12-24-2012, 08:01 PM   #1822
Roadracer_Al
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Safety wire. It's not just for racers anymore.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:08 PM   #1823
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I'd second the safety wire then. The aircraft mechanics used it all over the engine bays of the general aviation aircraft. For some reason, pilots hate bolts coming off their engines
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:26 PM   #1824
MTrider16
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Usually over stressed bolts stretch, or the holes they are in stretch. This is most easily seen if the bolts act like they are stripped or thread with difficulty. Casting the bolts are threaded into will pull out of the casting giving a raised appearance around the threaded hole.

If a bolt is loosening, perhaps it doesn't have enough stretch length. If there is enough stretch in the bolt it will usually stay tight even with vibration. Usually the recommended value is 10x the diameter should be allowed free to stretch.

Another problem is the surface that is being clamped yeilding. High strength washers can help spread out the load when a soft material is being clamped by the bolt.

Any of these sound familiar JD?
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:30 PM   #1825
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You got a pic of the offending area? I happen to have a Verseys parked in my Garage. When I get done visiting my relatives, I can take a look on Thursday.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:34 AM   #1826
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by DRjoe View Post
Is there paint on the surface of the mounts?
Paint on the compressed sections of the mount can cause bolt loosening.
the M12 has paint at the outside, but mill finish aluminum at the motor. good point, but i don't think it's paint.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:38 AM   #1827
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by Roadracer_Al View Post
Safety wire. It's not just for racers anymore.
that's a thought, i've got some wire too.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:42 AM   #1828
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by TheGreatHareafter View Post
I'd second the safety wire then. The aircraft mechanics used it all over the engine bays of the general aviation aircraft. For some reason, pilots hate bolts coming off their engines
a second vote for wire, you guys must not want to see a photo of a cop motor sitting in the middle of some far off gravel road.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:47 AM   #1829
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post

Any of these sound familiar JD?
nope...

whew, for a second there, i thought you were going to say, "if you slow down a little, the damn bike won't fall apart" ya know, somethin' like that.
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Old 12-25-2012, 04:56 AM   #1830
jdrocks OP
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Originally Posted by MTrider16 View Post
You got a pic of the offending area? I happen to have a Verseys parked in my Garage. When I get done visiting my relatives, I can take a look on Thursday.
a Versys in the garage, man, don't park it next to that F800, something bad might...ah, never mind.


those bolts are under plastic on the stock Versys, but exposed on mine, no excuse not to check them more often.
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