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Old 01-31-2011, 07:18 PM   #12391
RichBeBe
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I am not disagreeing with the sand crashing and it hurting, but I ride sand enduro and rock enduros and I would much rather crash in the sand then rocks.
I crashed similar to that pick\ in the 2009 Delaware enduro and other than my thumb being a bit tweaked from it hitting the hand guard I was fine. I crashed similarly onto the rocks, when I came over a drop off a bit fast and foolishly grabbed a bit of front brake and the wheel tucked and flipped me and the bike and my entire body hurt for two weeks.
Yes sand hurts, but not as much as rocks.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:57 PM   #12392
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I plead the F5th.
Box came today! Thank you!
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:28 PM   #12393
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Originally Posted by RichBeBe View Post
Yes sand hurts, but not as much as rocks.
Well, it is just tiny rocks
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:35 AM   #12394
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Originally Posted by DesertSurfer View Post
Most people assume sliding on sand is forgiving... wrong there too. A delayed friction build up occurs after contact is made that has a heat flash that can be felt fairly deep in the body. Similar to a shocking sensation.
Few are riding so fast on sand of this consistency and granular variety that this is the case, IMO/IME. It is entirely dependant upon packed-ness and grain size and speed and *just* the right circumstance for this ti happen - although I have heard of it firsthand from people at Glamis as well as Dakar(Northern Sahara) veterans. I have crashed at over 80+ mph on realtively smooth sand and only felt this "friction-heating" sensation momentarily and without any visual/perceivable detriment to my gear or armor. Perhaps more speed and smoother(yet soft) terrain might bring this about but this combination is rare indeed with the 450 rule, etc., IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geode View Post
Sand is like water, push against it slowly and it will seem to part around your hand / leg effortlessly.

Hit it with velocity and it is much like concrete.
That's a good analogy, geode...

In gymnastics as a kid, I learned to "...always tumble, but never try to stop yourself by outstretched anything..." and in sand at speed crashing away from your motorcycle, I have found that this is a more important strategy than any other surface beyond asphalt(with correct gear - sliders, leather, etc.) - where skidding with tumbling dissipates energy faster than just one or the other. In soft terrain/sand/silt("fesh-fesh"), it is so important NOT to leave your digits and/or foreleg/arm out but instead to leave your major appendages bent but out in order to tumble without ever "lawn-darting" your forearm or foreleg into the soft media. I personally have drastically overjumped and landed down the leeward(soft...) side of a dune and lawn-darted the bike, but tumbled to a safe situation far down the hill from the cartwheeled bike via this strategy. If you watch many of the seasoned(read: dune-trained) Dakarists crash on video/helicopter camera in the sand of any kind, this is clearly something they have learned and practiced. On purpose or not, I don't know, but it's clear to me that they have this same comprehension of the correct reaction to their circumstances in most video'ed cases for the single purpose of osteo-self-preservation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RichBeBe View Post
...the wheel tucked and flipped me and the bike and my entire body hurt for two weeks.
Yes sand hurts, but not as much as rocks.
In engineering terms(how I've been trained to think) - you are comparing a point load versus a distributed one. If a body part(forearm, finger, etc.) has penetrated soft mud/sand/silt, the moment that occurs is entirely dependent on the joint that remains to afford the range of motion needed to "roll over" the penetrated body part and then allow it to extract itself. Still when you land on a rock(point load) versus sand(distributed across the contact area) it is indeed a very differ experiences(and outcome).



Just my $.02...

hilslamer screwed with this post 02-01-2011 at 01:43 AM
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:07 AM   #12395
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What a great thread this year!

I'm going to unstick it and let if float now...

Until next year! Cheers!
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:14 AM   #12396
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jeez, only 5000 more posts than last year
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:12 PM   #12397
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Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
What a great thread this year!

I'm going to unstick it and let if float now...

Until next year! Cheers!
Uhh... did you get clearance from Packmule to do this?

Or Flood, his right-hand minion when it comes to all things Dakar?


You in beeg twouble, Lucy!


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Old 02-01-2011, 03:23 PM   #12398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayduke View Post
What a great thread this year!

I'm going to unstick it and let if float now...

Until next year! Cheers!
Yeah, unstick this and sticky the 2012 thread!


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Old 02-01-2011, 03:51 PM   #12399
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[QUOTE=F650Dakar_Norway;14855584]The respect and awe part we share, but I'm quite realistic when saying that participating in this race is not my personal dream or goal. Doing the same piece of route on my own bike without the time constraints of a race would be my piece of cake


Is it possible to obtain the route and GPS tracks after the race? I think it would really be a gas to post-race-ride the same route, cough, with maybe a ride-around the dunes. = avoid the really treacherous dunes section.

Last time I checked, I don't like sand that deep. smile. For that portion, maybe the road route of the support vehicles.
Shoot, just the road route of the support vehicles would be an adventure for this 56 year old rider. and a fine adventure indeed.

PS--I was in Norway during Winter of '84 flying CH53D Sea Stallions. What a beautiful country; would love to come back and enjoy the 15 days of summer. wink.
You know, on a motorbike.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:09 PM   #12400
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Yeah, unstick this and sticky the 2012 thread!
Doyle, you better get the 2012 thread going now! Andale!

F5'ers, better get those fingers into training!
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:30 PM   #12401
Knute Dunrvnyet
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Originally Posted by JayBo1 View Post
You tend to be going fairly slowly cresting a dune like this so the temptation is to think it won't hurt much because the sand is soft ... however, I fractured my Scafoid in the Abu Dhabi Desert Challenge last year falling very slowly onto the soft sand. Rob Pollard ("Rallye") fractured his wrist doing something very similar to that photo of #114. Neither of us got our wrists caught in the hand protectors, so it was purely hitting the sand.

The bike rarely gets "tweaked" in these minor spills though. Generally the worst part is losing fuel out the breathers when the bike invariably ends up wrong way up and you take time to summon the energy to drag it around. The throttle tube generally gets clogged with sand.

The other thing that you allude to is also very relevant. It is very tiring picking your bike up on a soft down-face like that and getting under way again is quite tricky. I go into a bit of detail on one technique I worked out in my story of the ADDC2010 in the Aussie Forum.

My advice - don't do a #114
Cheers
JayBo
Thnx for the feedback. I asked about the fatigue factor because I was a
B enduro rider here in the east in the 70s-early80s.

Knute
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:35 PM   #12402
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Originally Posted by Drif10 View Post
Uhh... did you get clearance from Packmule to do this?

Or Flood, his right-hand minion when it comes to all things Dakar?


You in beeg twouble, Lucy!





It's ok; I banned 'em both until next January.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:49 PM   #12403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revmaaatin View Post

Is it possible to obtain the route and GPS tracks after the race? I think it would really be a gas to post-race-ride the same route, cough, with maybe a ride-around the dunes. = avoid the really treacherous dunes section.

Last time I checked, I don't like sand that deep. smile. For that portion, maybe the road route of the support vehicles.
Shoot, just the road route of the support vehicles would be an adventure for this 56 year old rider. and a fine adventure indeed.

PS--I was in Norway during Winter of '84 flying CH53D Sea Stallions. What a beautiful country; would love to come back and enjoy the 15 days of summer. wink.
You know, on a motorbike.
Shouldn't take much imagination or enterprise to see the benefits of organized tours along the rally routes with maybe a support vehiche or two. Then chuck in a competent instructor or two teaching us a few rally-riding survival tricks and let us practice them on our own bikes. Gotta be a market for that.

I don't have the network, sponsors or urge to seek the risks or challenge of the Dakar, but rather ride within my own comfort- and safety-zone and practice some roadbook nav, check out some easy sand dunes etc. My 5-bolt knee ligament surgery just forces me to think conservatively anyway. There's no way I could risk ripping up that knee again or risk more surgery. The rehab takes too long etc. Riding the African- or South American Dakar routes within the comfort and relative safety of an organized tour would've been a gas though!

And ridng here in Scandinavia has it's upsides too, BTW. Not much desert or sand dunes though I saw some CH-53 Sea Stallions being unloaded from a C-5 Galaxy and being test-flown before storage at my workplace a few years later than your visit. Briefed those young pilots at our briefing office and had good fun doing it. You're welcome back to Norway for a ride any time. My granddad was born in the U.S. in 1906. Sioux City - if my memory is correct.
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:11 PM   #12404
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Originally Posted by revmaaatin View Post
Is it possible to obtain the route and GPS tracks after the race?
Nope, the route is supposed to be secret. ASO never publishes a detailed map, even after the race finishes. Your only option is to get the roadbooks from someone who raced the the event, and navigate with them just like the races do, or you can get a few stages here:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=648135
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Old 02-02-2011, 05:23 AM   #12405
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And the burning...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hilslamer View Post
It is entirely dependant upon packed-ness and grain size and speed
And the moisture in the sand too. The sand located in the vast riding dunes of western Oregon where I've lived and trained over the years has an ocean treated dampness. Ocean air can intensify sands abrasive "stick" of impact. Ever heard of sand burns?

One thing that hasn't been touched on much with regard to the Dakar races favoring the sand is how ABSOLUTELY destructive it is on a motorcycle's wear and tear as well. After spending days out riding in the sand dunes, I hated nothing worse then the time and money required in maintenance of my bikes afterwards. I'd be constantly amazed at how penetrative and abrasive sand is in every area of a bike. Sand dune riding alone separates the sponsored riders from the privateers in such huge ways, not just in technique and conditioning, but overall constant bike maintenance and repair. Without the sand sections, the bikes would fair much better with regard to engine fatigue. And this is always the most fatiguing stages for the riders as well. And the most difficult to navigate through.
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