What is Harley doing?

[996DL]

Originally Posted by Ultra

Harley unit sales: 2010: 210,494 - net profit $259.7 million. Harley-Davidson Financial Services was a key contributor to 2010 earnings, with net income of $181.9 million.

Harley's customer base is dying while the imports' customer bases are growing.

Those 2010 figures look just fine and they've never intended to outproduce Honda worldwide. A next gen big twin is just around the corner and with Polaris/Victory's hp/torque figures as an incentive, it'll be their best yet.

With photo radar/traffic light cameras and draconian penalties ever increasing for speeding, rumbling along on a Harley has never made better sense.

But worry and promote doom and gloom, if that's your pleasure.

996DL

[xymotic]

Originally Posted by 996DL

Those 2010 figures look just fine and they've never intended to out produce Honda worldwide. A next gen big twin is just around the corner and with Polaris/Victory's hp/torque figures as an incentive, it'll be their best yet.

With photo radar/traffic light cameras and draconian penalties ever increasing for speeding, rumbling along on a Harley has never made better sense.

But worry and promote doom and gloom, if that's your pleasure.

996DL

What figures are you looking at?

Their units sold are down down down. They made a profit, but not from selling bikes, from re-organizing their financial unit. That might be 'ok' if they were a financial services company, but the fact is that those services also depend on them actually selling bikes... which they ain't doing

But I do think the India thing has lots of potential. They will no doubt create a smaller/more practical india only bike. The sad thing is that we'll certainly never get it here because they pay a HUGE 'buy american' backlash if they ever sold such a bike here.

[996DL]

If you can manage to still sell 200,000 premium priced, union produced motorcycles, in the middle of a recession/depression and turn out a profit of a 1/4 billion dollars, I'd think you're turning it around just fine.

Motorcycles are a luxury item, at least in HD's marketplace segment and with the recent/current worldwide financial crisis, the formally ever increasing numbers will slide. One way or the other, HD's managed to weather numerous wars and economic turndowns, this one ain't any different.

Shitcanning Buell and losing hundred's of millions on the MV experiment, were extremely poor moves, but what's done is done and they're soldiering on regardless.

Moto Guzzi put out some 3000 bikes last year and has a nearly non-existent dealer network in NA, now there's a company to worry about.

996DL

[Ultra]

Originally Posted by 996DL

If you can manage to still sell 200,000 premium priced, union produced motorcycles, in the middle of a recession/depression and turn out a profit of a 1/4 billion dollars, I'd think you're turning it around just fine.

You think selling 70% less motorcycles is a good thing, huh? HD is only profitable now because they were able to shed their bad loans and restructure Eaglemark and HDFS, their lending institution.

Over half of all new Harleys sold in the US are financed through Eaglemark HD. So they are essentially selling bikes to themselves.

The only reason they were able to move so many bikes in the last few years was because Eaglemark gave easy credit to ANYONE with a pulse. Now that credit is much harder to get, far fewer Harleys will be sold.

And now that the market is flooded with used Harleys from bank repos and people coming on hard times, the outlook is even worse.

Further, Harley shouldn't even be in business anymore. Harley would have had to file for bankruptcy in 2009 had it not been for the US Government bailing them out by buying $2.3 billion in "commercial paper" from HD Financial secretly.

Again, our tax dollars saved Harley Davidson. How many times do we have to save Harley? Indian didn't get saved. Excelsior Henderson didn't get saved. Neither did the myriad of other US auto companies.

Harley has proven time and again that it CANNOT stand on it's own with it's current boutique bikes. If not for taxpayer money, they would be gone already. They need a more viable product with wider appeal to survive without government intervention. Period.

I wish the government would give me 2.3 billion. I'm sure I could show a $250 million profit with a $2.3 billion handout. If you think Harley is in good shape... you just haven't been paying attention.

[Meriden]

Nothing advertises "I have the crabs" like a Harley Davidson tank top on some bar skank.

There is an argument to be made that the hottest chicks go for Vespas, but then some guys find bar skanks hot so it becomes a matter of personal preference.


Years ago Walmart was making a name for themselves with their "Buy American" campaign. Later their customers easily made the switch to the "good household economics" argument and much of their product now comes from overseas. Sure, there would be a backlash among the party faithful if HD started shipping bikes in from over seas, but over time buyers wouldn't care. That is IF they can pull off a greenfield overseas production facility. I would bet they can't. I wonder how much foreign content there is in a sportster today.

[996DL]

Originally Posted by Ultra

You think selling 70% less motorcycles is a good thing, huh?

It appears math isn't necessarily your strong point, as 200,000 units sold in 2010 will highlight.

ADVrider's many forums and threads, are apparently an attractive proposition for many Harley Davidson haters, glad to see you've found a niche. You'll be a big hit in Yo momma.

996DL

[Tall Man]

Steady on, 996DL. Ultra's comments do get to the heart of the matter.

Originally Posted by easyrider88

I remember being in a bar and having a gal say to a friend, "This ASS don't sit on nothing but HD."

I've heard a few women say that, too. Let me just say that, for any number of reasons, I'm glad that they don't want to sit on my bike!

[996DL]

The moment Harley Davidson tries to directly compete with "Japan MC Corp.", then you'll witness failure and a real waste of your precious tax dollars.

Harleys sell because they're Harleys, it's that simple and don't think for a moment, their R & D facilities aren't up to the task, of ensuring their product line meets future requirements, you'll lose your bet.

And if you think other countries, don't subsidize their industries at times of crisis, think again.

996DL

[Tuna Helper]

You don't think HD could build a successful UJM copy? That would require straying from the v twin motor.

[Kamloopsrider]

Originally Posted by Ultra

You think selling 70% less motorcycles is a good thing, huh? HD is only profitable now because they were able to shed their bad loans and restructure Eaglemark and HDFS, their lending institution.

Over half of all new Harleys sold in the US are financed through Eaglemark HD. So they are essentially selling bikes to themselves.

The only reason they were able to move so many bikes in the last few years was because Eaglemark gave easy credit to ANYONE with a pulse. Now that credit is much harder to get, far fewer Harleys will be sold.

And now that the market is flooded with used Harleys from bank repos and people coming on hard times, the outlook is even worse.

Further, Harley shouldn't even be in business anymore. Harley would have had to file for bankruptcy in 2009 had it not been for the US Government bailing them out by buying $2.3 billion in "commercial paper" from HD Financial secretly.

Again, our tax dollars saved Harley Davidson. How many times do we have to save Harley? Indian didn't get saved. Excelsior Henderson didn't get saved. Neither did the myriad of other US auto companies.

Harley has proven time and again that it CANNOT stand on it's own with it's current boutique bikes. If not for taxpayer money, they would be gone already. They need a more viable product with wider appeal to survive without government intervention. Period.

I wish the government would give me 2.3 billion. I'm sure I could show a $250 million profit with a $2.3 billion handout. If you think Harley is in good shape... you just haven't been paying attention.

Awfully opinionated for a guy with no bike.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by 996DL

Moto Guzzi put out some 3000 bikes last year and has a nearly non-existent dealer network in NA, now there's a company to worry about.

Moto Guzzi's like the furniture store on the corner- going out of business every other month *is* part of their business plan.

[DAKEZ]

Originally Posted by Tuna Helper

You don't think HD could build a successful UJM copy? That would require straying from the v twin motor.

Nothing wrong with a v-twin.

[Tuna Helper]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Nothing wrong with a v-twin.

No, but Buell's sales weren't all that great. I think a lot of riders dogged the brand because of the motor more than the bike as a whole. Consider that the XB12 was raced in the 600 class rather than with other literbikes. My 10 year old F4 had 2 ponies more than my 3 year old XB.

[Meriden]

Originally Posted by DAKEZ

Nothing wrong with a v-twin.

Nope, not when they are well executed.

[Tripped1]

Originally Posted by Tuna Helper

Consider that the XB12 was raced in the 600 class rather than with other literbikes. My 10 year old F4 had 2 ponies more than my 3 year old XB.

So are air cooled Ducatis if you want to be technical about it.

In CCS Thunderbike you see SVs, XBs ect ect.