What is Harley doing?

[LuciferMutt]

I give a lot of credit to their engineers. They have done amazing things with technology that shouldn't even be on the road anymore.

[dwestly]

Originally Posted by DevilNinjaDog

I give a lot of credit to their engineers. They have done amazing things with technology that shouldn't even be on the road anymore.

touche...

[ph0rk]

Originally Posted by btcn

I just read an article in the newspaper today about Harley actually trying to solve their problem of most riders being of old age and getting older. I also read an article about their sales going down BIG TIME!

I have no idea who is in charge of this, but they need to pull their head out from where ever it is! Seriously, this is not going to draw any new younger riders in!

While I am personally a very big fan of Harley and am one of the younger riders, I see their problem. Seriously, their BIG problem is price. Yes, hardcore Harley riders may pay the price, but do you think a 15 year old who just got his motorcycle license is going to go out and spend $10,000+ on a brand new 800 pound hog? I REALLY REALLY doubt that! Ain't happening. He will either buy an older Japanese four on Craigslist, or buy some sort of sports bike like a Ninja 250 or an R6.

Why did Honda make the shadow RS and not Harley (sit on one before you comment, it actually has a normal seat height)? A higher-seat sub 7k sportster-esque bike (maybe a cheaper xr1200r) would be just the thing.

And really easy for them to do, too.


Edit: this was before I saw the 2011:



Find a more ujm-like seat and that would be super.

[Gumbeaux]

They need to make a streetfighter, street rod that is more sporty than the Vrod.

Similar to the Triumph Speed and Street Triples. Or the Yamaha Vmax. Kawasakis new 1000 whatever thingy.

Make a sporty bike...

[Blue&Yellow]

Originally Posted by JBSmith

Here's a post I wrote for one of my blogs, Tread Life, back when H-D pulled the plug on Buell. I don't know how the mods feel about directing traffic to personal blogs, so I'll paste it here:



I was contacted through this blog a few months ago by a woman who worked for what was then Buell’s advertising agency. She had read a post here in which I wondered why roadracing wasn't more popular in the U.S. For some reason she thought I might be able to tell her why, given Buell’s recent successes in AMA roadracing, sportbike riders weren't flocking to Buell showrooms.

She was aware that Buell’s wins were tainted in some race fans’ eyes by virtue of the 1125cc twin running in the same class as 600cc fours. I wasn't too sure there was any real basis for that resentment—the Buells weren't exactly walking away with every race—but it certainly had to be thrown in the mix.

I then shifted into full bloviating mode. Buell’s real problem as I saw it was more complex than resentment at its roadrace wins against smaller bikes. First, although they were tricker and faster than anything Harley had ever put on the street, they weren’t any faster—and were a lot less trick—than your average 600cc four from Japan. Sportbike sales live and die on performance, and Buells didn’t outperform the competition sufficiently to make them a viable alternative.

Also, in order to buy a Buell, in most cases you had to go to a Harley dealership. For years now Harley has been selling the sizzle instead of the steak. A lot of veteran Harley salespeople didn’t know what to make of an actual steak sitting on their showroom floor. They were unprepared to answer the kind of questions sportbike riders asked, and had little or no interest in the Buell line of motorcycles except insofar as they took up space where another blinged-out Big Twin could have been sitting. A lot of them just didn’t care about Buells, and equated selling them with some tedious community service they were obliged to perform, like picking up roadside litter after a DUI.

It has to be said, too, that most of the “innovations” Buell loved to crow about—fuel in the frame, oil in the swingarm, the rim-mounted front brake, the underslung muffler—had all appeared first on other bikes. Buell collected them all into one package, for which he deserves some props, I suppose, but it smacked of the “because we can” school of engineering. None of those things made the bike substantially faster or better handling than its competition, just different.

One huge thing that held Buell back was there from the very beginning—that engine. Sportster engines, like steam locomotives and Stearman biplanes, are charming devices in an antediluvian sort of way. But sportbike powerplants? Please. Stuffing one in a purported sportbike is like breeding a thoroughbred and then breaking one of its legs before the race. By the time Buells got the engine they deserved from the outset, it was way too late.

The nice lady from the ad agency listened patiently to what I said, thanked me, promised she’d be in touch, and never called back. Later I read that her agency had been dropped by Buell. It probably wasn’t the first messenger to be shot that way, and likely won’t be the last.

In the press release announcing the closing of Buell, Keith Wandell, the new, non-motorcycle-riding CEO of Harley-Davidson, said, “We believe we can create a bright long-term future for our stakeholders through a single-minded focus on the Harley-Davidson brand.” Wandell hasn’t been with the company very long, so perhaps he can be forgiven for not knowing that this “single-minded focus” is a strategy of convenience, easily set aside when there’s a shiny bauble within reach. Harley is subject to fits of compulsive shopping, often followed by deep bouts of buyer's remorse. In the last 25 years it bought and discarded Tri-Hawk, Holiday Rambler, and now Buell and MV Agusta. Each of these purchases was hailed as the beginning of a bright new partnership; each of these corporate marriages ended in tears.

So when news of Buell’s demise broke last week, I was shocked but not surprised, except perhaps by how long Harley stuck with Buell before casting it aside. Anyone who comes under the Harley umbrella, even willingly, has to be thinking, night and day, that he could be the next one thrown out of the sleigh.

Maybe that was Erik Buell’s fatal mistake—ignoring history.

Good read and I agree with what you're saying. Most of all though I just think Buell was a tad to radical for most people, we bikers may like technology but were pretty slow to adjust to new tech. Bike technology is generally 10-20 years behind cars and if it has new tech and also looks kind of funny on top of that it's a hard proposition to sell. Especially at a Harley dealership...

[Tripped1]

Originally Posted by DevilNinjaDog

FWIW I think the XR1200 is a huge step in the right direction and it's the only HD I am interested in. Still too much coin for me. The other big hurdle here is getting the younger crown into the stores to SEE this bike. Most of them won't even set foot on HD dealer property.

Its a step, yes.

However, I'm 31 years old and I had only ever seen a flat track race in pictures until the Indy mile last year.

Styling, miss

Likewise I know good and damn well that the XR has a sportster motor

Motor miss

Look at the XR and you can see clearly that it is lacking in ground clearance...

Handling miss

Oh and while you are at it it cost $2000 MORE than an SV 650 that will do EVERYTHING better .....and and won't cook your leg off in traffic.

Yeah the XR is a step, but that is it.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by DevilNinjaDog

It's not popular because it's a turd. There are 250 motorcycles costing less that are twice as fast, handle and stop light years better.

So you're saying it's the 250 that Harley should have built?

[btcn]

Originally Posted by DevilNinjaDog

It's not popular because it's a turd. There are 250 motorcycles costing less that are twice as fast, handle and stop light years better.

You are right that Harleys are too expensive for the young crowd. The other problem is speed, or lack thereof. They aren't fast enough (or don't LOOK fast enough) for the young crowd. Until HD starts building and selling something intended from the ground up to be a bike that handles sharply, stops well and weighs less than 600 lbs, they just aren't going to get the interest of younger riders. It's not HD's fault that young riders want speed and sportiness but it's the truth.





Really?

I have to disagree with your points 4 and, to some extent, 5. Modern HD's are extremely well built with excellent fit and finish, amazing paint and very high build quality. They have come lightyears in the last decade or so. As far as poor handling, the new frames on the touring machines have pretty much solved that complaint and they handle surprisingly well for such a large machine. Heavy and slow...well...yeah.



FWIW I think the XR1200 is a huge step in the right direction and it's the only HD I am interested in. Still too much coin for me. The other big hurdle here is getting the younger crown into the stores to SEE this bike. Most of them won't even set foot on HD dealer property.

As for the 250, I kind of agree. Its not THAT slow, sure faster than a lot of 250 motorcycles, I have seen a video of it going 0-60 in 9 seconds. It's only $4,090 brand new, while the Rebel 250 is $3,999, not much difference other than $91. But thats still to much for a 250, and I wouldn't pay $3,999 for a Rebel either. But it does look cool for some beginners who like that style.

And I totally agree with you on the Harleys. Yes, they are rather slow for their engine displacement. But they are NOT made to go fast either. They are all torque, they are designed strictly for long interstate riding, hauling 2 people up hills into winds with cargo at 80 MPH, thats what they do. They won't exceed much over 110 MPH, but they cruise REALLY nice!

I love Harleys, they are really beautiful machines and just are a joy to ride. But yes, they do handle like boats. Lean much into a corner and your foot pegs start to scrape, and they brakes take their sweet time slowing down the 800 pound machine. But point is, they DO what they were meant to do particularly well.

BUt yes, this is NOT what young guys want. Thats the problem. And yes, modern Harleys are very reliable and good machines.

[haithabu]

I think part of the problem is that Harley's brand is so narrowly focused that its value doesn't spill over into the wider motorcycle market. Anything they try which does not fit into that very specific image has no marketing boost from the Harley name. It's like starting from scratch. For all the synergy Buell got from Harley, they might as well have run it as a completely unrelated company.

For that reason financial markets are not going to reward Harley for diversifying outside of the main concept. Investors can do that for themselves, thank you very much. Harley Davidson is being run as it should be - as a cash cow with a limited future.

[btcn]

Originally Posted by Tripped1

Its a step, yes.

However, I'm 31 years old and I had only ever seen a flat track race in pictures until the Indy mile last year.

Styling, miss

Likewise I know good and damn well that the XR has a sportster motor

Motor miss

Look at the XR and you can see clearly that it is lacking in ground clearance...

Handling miss



Oh and while you are at it it cost $2000 MORE than an SV 650 that will do EVERYTHING better .....and and won't cook your leg off in traffic.

Yeah the XR is a step, but that is it.

I have to agree with you on this. The XR 1200 IS a step, but its a miss. Its slow, DOES NOT rev, doesn't handle too well, doesn't look to racy, and costs far more than it needs to. I think Harley getting rit of Buell was a VERY stupid move. I know SOME young guys WILL set foot in a Buell dealer, but NEVER a Harley dealer. Bring Buells back, and improve them even more! COnstruct a model with a supped up V-Rod motor! Come on Harley! The Black custom isn't gonna do ANYTHING!

As much as I love Harley, I just want to see them stay in business and be successful. And unless they do something, they might have some trouble.

[ganze]

Funny thread. Harley has sold more bikes in the last decade than anyone else. They are more profitable than anyone else too.... at least I think so, without hard numbers or data to back that up.... Anyway: what they do has worked for them.

What are their sales woes compared to, say...Suzuki's?

Since it came out, I get a real jones for an xr1200 every three months or so. It is the only "standard" or ujm-like bike left that one can buy new these days. So every three months or so I make myself go in to the local harley dealership. I ride an sv1000 daily, but also proudly drive the minivan when I need to drive....that thing is the most practical car ever made.... my point is, I am "out of their demographic" and they know it no matter how I arrive at their shop.

This time I was really impressed with the xr1200x on the floor: something really cool about that bike. It's like a cross between an xr750, a cb1100f and a zrx1100... in appearances anyway. I know the bike is SLOW compared to even my docile japanese twin, but it's really cool and maybe almost fast enough, has almost good enough brakes, and handles almost good enough to warrant a look. With a little help and a lot of $$ it could really move, brake and handle well too.

So I go in and start talking to the sales guys and am just accosted by their total lack of knowledge about non-harley motorcycles. "This thing is FAST... dude" etc... Also, I clearly knew way more about this bike than they did. And finally, it was clear to me that their idea of a good day in the saddle and mine are not the same: in fact not even in the same universe. The harley "culture" by nature is insulated from the rest of the biking world. "We don't care about your bike" are words I have heard a harley sales dude say to another rider. As one who would love to love a harley, these are huge barriers still. When I was looking at Buells before I bought the sv I was treated as a leper in 90% of dealerships I entered. And the guys didn't know ANYTHING about the Buell bikes at all.

An XR1125 would be bad ass, as would a VR1200, so would an entirely oversquare pushrod motor that would rev to 85000. The Harley sound is something that Harley people love but the rest of the world thinks is obnoxious: adding some revs would help both the top end and the sound. The Harley guys I know, have no clue what I am even talking about when this subject comes up. They love their bikes for what they are: symbols of rebellion or some kind of biker lifestyle that are reliable, comfortable and great for cruising around town with a mate or all day on the highway.

The kicker is, Harley doesn't care what non-harley people think. They have their brand to protect and the brand itself is the thing that turns off guys like me.

I may buy an xr1200 still, just b/c. With True-Track's, Ohlins', Brembo's, Alpina's, S&S's, and a boatload of cash, a 110-120hp, fast as hell and great handling cafe racer could be a reality. Do I want to do all that? Not sure especially when I could just go get a monster, streetfighter, speed triple and really quite a few bikes that would do that for quite a bit less money, a hell of a lot less work and still get to be a part of a "culture" that is a step away from squid-land.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by Gumbeaux

They need to make a streetfighter, street rod that is more sporty than the Vrod.

Similar to the Triumph Speed and Street Triples. Or the Yamaha Vmax. Kawasakis new 1000 whatever thingy.

Make a sporty bike...

You mean like the Lightning, or like the 1125CR? Maybe an upright non-cruiser touring bike too. You know, like the Ulysses. And maybe a sportbike, like the 1125R.

See, they HAD all those, but the current CEO is back to "core market", because all those other bikes were confusing customers.

HD appears to be content to boldly go where GM has gone before.

[C-Stain]

I don't ride a Harley. I don't think I'm ready for another foot forward motorcycle anytime soon.

Harley Davidson has been making motorcycle since, what? 1903?

That's like....108 years?

They're still in business and making yuppies into pirates.

They turned a profit last year, after the losing money the previous.

They must be doing something right....

[Tripped1]

Originally Posted by Gumbeaux

They need to make a streetfighter, street rod that is more sporty than the Vrod.

Similar to the Triumph Speed and Street Triples. Or the Yamaha Vmax. Kawasakis new 1000 whatever thingy.

Make a sporty bike...

The Revolution weighs entirely too much and is physically to large to ever make a decent street fighter out of.

Look at the Super Duke, Street Fighter, Speed Triple ect they are trying to get around 400lbs dry...that Revo by itself is over 300lbs if memory servers and it TALL on top of that, so trying to get enough airbox would be a challenge ..at best.

[dwoodward]

Originally Posted by ganze

Funny thread. Harley has sold more bikes in the last decade than anyone else. They are more profitable than anyone else too.... at least I think so, without hard numbers or data to back that up.... Anyway: what they do has worked for them.

It's HD worried about future sales, not us inmates. Part of the rationale behind dropping Buell was to stop confusing their customers. (Up to you if you read something into that about their customers...)