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Old 02-02-2011, 09:52 AM   #61
Brummbär
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
Combat history
All but two of the 91 available Ferdinands were put to use in the Battle of Kursk, the first combat the Ferdinand saw. Although they destroyed many Russian tanks, they performed quite poorly in other respects. Within the first four days nearly half of the vehicles were out of service, mostly due to technical problems and mine damage to tracks and suspensions. Actual combat losses to direct Soviet action were very low as the Ferdinand's very thick armor protected it from almost all Soviet antitank weaponry. However, at this point in its development the Ferdinand lacked a machine gun or any secondary armament, making it vulnerable to attack by infantry. Most total losses of the Ferdinand occurred during the Soviet counter-offensive after the Kursk offensive, many damaged Ferdinands had to be abandoned as they were too heavy to tow and others were lost to mechanical breakdown during the retreat.
You´re more than right...i meant the direkt confrontation between the German/Russian tanks

(...and i just don´t like the designation "Cannon Fodder")

Sending thousands of soldiers against a superior enemy is more Cannon Fodder to me than this Machine...
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Brummbär View Post
You´re more than right...i meant the direkt confrontation between the German/Russian tanks

(...and i just don´t like the designation "Cannon Fodder")

Sending thousands of soldiers against a superior enemy is more Cannon Fodder to me than this Machine...
If I remember correctly, the Elephant was the brainchild of Hitler, who demanded bigger and bigger tanks in response to every reversal on the Russian front. The Elephant succeeded in its limited role as a static defense weapon, but it was a very poor design in all other respects.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:10 AM   #63
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Sturmtiger

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:27 AM   #64
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Sturmtiger


No looking at the photo tag, that's cheating.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=58

patton museum T-28


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Old 02-02-2011, 10:27 AM   #65
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One big problem with the turretless tank destroyer is the lack of range of motion in the main gun. There are only a few degrees of traverse available. If your target is outside that range you have to move the whole vehicle which screws your aiming up and exposes your location. I imagine most during WW2 were used as a mobile pillbox and engaged other armor from the ambush rather than actively persuing.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:36 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Aurelius View Post
If I remember correctly, the Elephant was the brainchild of Hitler, who demanded bigger and bigger tanks in response to every reversal on the Russian front. The Elephant succeeded in its limited role as a static defense weapon, but it was a very poor design in all other respects.
A little bit. It´s first Name was "Ferdinand", after his Developer Ferdinand Porsche. The Chassis was first named to be Chassis for the Tiger Tank. 90 of them were built, but then Hitler favoured the design of Henschel´s Tiger. So the 90 Porsche Chassis were used for the Ferdinand, which were, after the Kursk Battle, taken to Austria for several Changes(machine guns, etc.) and then renamed into Elefant and sent to the Italian Front. And yes, Hitler wanted more and bigger ones as the King Tiger, Sturmtiger and never in Series built Tanks as the "Maus" and a so called Landcruiser( should have a weight of 1000tons!).

The ideas were sometimes not bad, but the results were out of touch with reality... Sure, sometimes there were 5 Sherman´s in need to destroy one Panther for example, but in this Case Quantity won against Quality..
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:50 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally quoted by Brummbar:

...but in this Case Quantity won against Quality...
For ten points, which Russian general said, "Quantity has a quality of its own."?

We're experiencing rolling blackouts, evidently throughout Texas. Can't participate in the discussion very well but try to follow.

Extremely heavy armored vehicles become limited by bridge limitations and other real world issues. Our M1 can have problems due to weight of 67 tons compared to the M60 A1 at 53 tons.

Good point made regarding turretless tanks and engagements of moving targets. Unless the opponent is traveling directly toward the turretless tank (or directly away) the gun is unable to traverse enough to lead the moving target.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Brummbär View Post
A little bit. It´s first Name was "Ferdinand", after his Developer Ferdinand Porsche. The Chassis was first named to be Chassis for the Tiger Tank. 90 of them were built, but then Hitler favoured the design of Henschel´s Tiger. So the 90 Porsche Chassis were used for the Ferdinand, which were, after the Kursk Battle, taken to Austria for several Changes(machine guns, etc.) and then renamed into Elefant and sent to the Italian Front. And yes, Hitler wanted more and bigger ones as the King Tiger, Sturmtiger and never in Series built Tanks as the "Maus" and a so called Landcruiser( should have a weight of 1000tons!).

The ideas were sometimes not bad, but the results were out of touch with reality... Sure, sometimes there were 5 Sherman´s in need to destroy one Panther for example, but in this Case Quantity won against Quality..
The problem with relying on a simple formula of heavy armor and big guns is that the resulting design is only suitable for long distance confrontations on vast open terrain. In urban battlefields or forests, which required speed and maneuverability, these giant tanks were completely out of their element.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:54 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by No False Enthusiasm View Post
For ten points, which Russian general said, "Quantity has a quality of its own."?
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:56 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by steelbreeze68w View Post
For some reason that reminded me of something an instructor told us during trainup for route clearance: "In the neverending race between warhead and armor, the warhead always eventually wins." It was meant as a caution against assuming our armor was invulnerable. Seven IED hits later I will be eternally grateful that race wasn't concluded against the armor around me.

On a somewhat related tangent- does anyone know the etymology of the term tank? I was told what i have always assumed was an urban legend regarding the origin of the term as it relates to armor having to do with mislabeled cargo. Details are a bit hazy.
My urban legend says that the mislabeling was on purpose.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:04 AM   #71
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T-28...

Can you imagine the effort required to change a broken end connector on the inside of the double track?

Just routine tightening of the wedges would take a long time. And it would be dangerous to have crew members working to advance the end connector to the correct position and check eight end connectors at once.

A simple failure would take the vehicle out of action for an extended period of time.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by No False Enthusiasm View Post
T-28...

Can you imagine the effort required to change a broken end connector on the inside of the double track?

Just routine tightening of the wedges would take a long time. And it would be dangerous to have crew members working to advance the end connector to the correct position and check eight end connectors at once.

A simple failure would take the vehicle out of action for an extended period of time.
Yes. And, as Aurelius and you said: more Quantity and those Giants were completely useless. That´s the reason why smaller ones were often more effective than these Monsters. On the other Hand, when the small tanks needs to hit you three or four times the Giant needs only one hit to smash the target. Butthe constant supplies are the next problem, and this is were the small hunter is in advantage, turret or not...
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:49 AM   #73
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The autobiography "Tigers In The Mud" by panzer commander Otto Carius mentions the later King Tigers did not have a turret but had to be aimed by steering the tracks which apparently caused a lot of transmission failures.

Good book BTW, I recommend it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:58 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Brummbär View Post
Yes. And, as Aurelius and you said: more Quantity and those Giants were completely useless. That´s the reason why smaller ones were often more effective than these Monsters. On the other Hand, when the small tanks needs to hit you three or four times the Giant needs only one hit to smash the target. Butthe constant supplies are the next problem, and this is were the small hunter is in advantage, turret or not...
It's not just a matter of quantity. In close quarter combat, it's not necessary to penetrate the tank's thick frontal armor to destroy it. The modest 75mm cannon of the Shermans was more than capable of destroying the tracks and penetrating the lighter armor surrounding the Panzer's engine at close range. Once a tank is unable to move, it quickly falls victim to any number of methods of attack.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:26 PM   #75
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It's not just a matter of quantity. In close quarter combat, it's not necessary to penetrate the tank's thick frontal armor to destroy it. The modest 75mm cannon of the Shermans was more than capable of destroying the tracks and penetrating the lighter armor surrounding the Panzer's engine at close range. Once a tank is unable to move, it quickly falls victim to any number of methods of attack.
If you can peel the supporting Infantry away from them.... The Panzerschreck, IIRC, (88mm bazooka) was nothing to fool with.


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