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Old 03-19-2011, 07:51 PM   #226
omnivore
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In that drawing, the water is injected into the turbine housing and then out the tailpipe? What purpose would that serve? It sure wouldn't help keep detonation inside the cylinders at bay when no water ever gets to them.....for some reason the turbine wheel needs cooling?
Shouldn't the water be injected into the compressor side, just after the compressor wheel before the intake manifold? I wouldn't do it before the compressor wheel, becasue at 100,000 rpm of turbocharger speed, even a water droplet can damage things.

I have a pressure switch that runs a windshield-washer mister that triggers an electrical pump and sprays washer fluid directly on the outside of my intercooler at 10= psi of boost. The alky in the washer fluid super cools the outside of the intercooler, dissipating extra heat from the boost at higher boost levels. The pressure switch is adjustable. You could set it up to switch on the H2o injection at 4+ psi for example, then you wouldn't be running it a low levels of boost, in hopes of stretching the supply. I can't recall where I got it (McMaster Carr maybe?), but it was cheap, like $12.00 IIRC.

You could also run a water/alky mix...it would cool the intake charge as much as 10x better than water alone, and helps keep valaves and piston tops super clean.....and it actually raises the octane rating of the incoming charge as well....helping to stave off detoantion 2 fold-cooler charge and better octane rating.
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omnivore screwed with this post 03-19-2011 at 07:59 PM
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Old 03-19-2011, 08:17 PM   #227
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Oops, I misspoke, the water sprays into the compressor wheel, not the turbine.

I believe 99.5% of the stuff on the internet about water causing compressor blade erosion is bull. It probably started because a few people didn't set their systems up right and the charge tube filled with water that could slosh into the inducer. Relatively fine droplets should not cause any erosion to worry about. There is plenty of precedent in aerospace equipment to demonstrate this, so I'm comfortable risking my turbo.

A really nice thing about spraying through the compressor is it improves the turbocharger efficiency. The compression process better approximates an isentropic process. That's the part that I get excited about. The water provides double benefits.

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Old 03-20-2011, 11:11 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by D.T. View Post
Toyota calling BS on your claim? Like they have any credibility nowadays.

Anyway, I love this man. I'm not a turbo guy, how does the water injection work?

They did and I'll never buy a Toyota again. Its too bad, I respected and admired the Prius's engineering.

I'm glad you asked about water injection! There is a lot of BS about water injection out there. A few years ago I lead a research program on supersonic combustion. Since detonation is a form of supersonic combustion this is a personal interest. Water injection's main benefit is suppressing detonation. Its like free octane. On this installation there are several things that just work out well so the system can be simple and effective.

From a thermodynamic perspective water injection changes a lot. It cools the intake mixture so less power is absorbed during the compression stroke. But it also reduces peak combustion temperatures so pressure on the piston during the power stroke is reduced. The net effect is water injection does not change the thermodynamically predicted power output. Not even a tiny bit. Water does expand 1800 times as it flashes to steam but that's just enough to make up for the lower combustion temperature. Its amazing how nature makes everything work out so there's no free lunch.

Now if detonation is limiting power then water injection can let you burn more fuel and make more power. I don't really believe this project needs water injection for 6 psi boost. Having the system just gives the option of dialing up more boost, and some protection while dialing in the jetting.

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Old 03-20-2011, 11:26 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Tommy_J View Post
Now if detonation is limiting power then water injection can let you burn more fuel and make more power. I don't really believe this project needs water injection for 6 psi boost. Having the system just gives the option of dialing up more boost, and some protection while dialing in the jetting.

.
And it looks cool!
I used it on a blow-through years ago. That was when I also found out that methanol (alky) doesn't do mag blocks much good.......dammit!
It is a bit safer on aluminium, but straight water does the job. If it's set up and jetted properly, you don't need the extra fuel from the methanol anyway.
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Old 03-20-2011, 11:27 AM   #230
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No, no, no!

I've seen a lot of silly ideas and irresponsible projects where no good can come from them in my time but this takes the cake, I love it!

This is going to be awesome.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:03 PM   #231
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Here is one way to make a water injection nozzle. It's not the best way but I used what I could find laying around. A 0.35 millimeter hole was drilled in a brass 10-32 screw. I can't believe I didn't break the drill. The screw was drilled with a larger diameter from the backside so the metering diameter is near the screw head.



A valve stem was cut from an old tube, drilled out, and tapped with 10-32 threads. The back side was drilled larger to accept a plastic one way valve that will get epoxied in.





The air filter was marked and drilled.



A piece of tube with a knife edge is the best drill for rubber.



Finally, the parts were assembled. A thin coating of RTV was used as threadlocker.





The one way valve prevents water from draining back to the tank and leaving the line empty.

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Old 03-20-2011, 02:34 PM   #232
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Great project. The attention to detail and craftsmanship is amazing!

Can’t wait for the test videos.
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Old 03-20-2011, 03:48 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Pmason View Post
Great project. The attention to detail and craftsmanship is amazing!

Can’t wait for the test videos.
Thanks I'm having a ball. I need to start thinking about how to make the videos because it should be done next weekend!

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Old 03-20-2011, 04:05 PM   #234
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Interesting injector nozzle........if that doesn't pan out, you can use propane bbq orifices since they have varying diameters (spray rates) and are already threaded.

Cool build.
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:02 AM   #235
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Interesting injector nozzle........if that doesn't pan out, you can use propane bbq orifices since they have varying diameters (spray rates) and are already threaded.

Cool build.
Or a tip from a MIG welder.
They come on .025, .030, .035...
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Old 03-21-2011, 08:12 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Tackett View Post
Or a tip from a MIG welder.
They come on .025, .030, .035...
I kept thinking there must be a better way to make the nozzle, but couldn't find anything small enough. The 0.35 mm orifice I have now is just 0.0138 inches. That was more or less a guess. I should do some flow measurments.
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Old 03-21-2011, 09:43 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Tommy_J View Post
I kept thinking there must be a better way to make the nozzle, but couldn't find anything small enough. The 0.35 mm orifice I have now is just 0.0138 inches. That was more or less a guess. I should do some flow measurments.
One advantage ot an orifice as opposed to a MIG tip is a natural gas/propane orifice is spray pattern.

Check the calculator here which will allow you to caluclate flow rates for water based upon pressure, pipe diameter and orifice diameter.
http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/orifice/

Plus, you can find the fittings for a propane or natural gas just about anywhere and the flow rates and sizes are pretty standard based upon orifice number. Just a thought if you are doing some fine tuning.

I really appreciate your craftsmanship and willingness to share.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:10 AM   #238
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Spray pattern doesn't make any difference at all in this application. Once the mixture is whipped up in that compressor wheel spinning at 100,000 rpm, it will be atomized better than any nozzle could.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:44 AM   #239
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I've quite often used the small Mikuni jets for sizes that small, the ones with M5 thread.
They make good Nitrous jets for small HP applications.
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Old 03-21-2011, 04:03 PM   #240
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I've quite often used the small Mikuni jets for sizes that small, the ones with M5 thread.
They make good Nitrous jets for small HP applications.
hmm... perhaps turbo + nitrous! mwahaha!

Awesome build, can't wait to hear it run!
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