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Old 02-12-2012, 05:17 PM   #1561
hillbillypolack
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Originally Posted by objectuser View Post
Very interesting. So it's at least plausible that the engines weigh the same. Outside of character, maybe the COG is the only advantage of the boxer engine?
Am I missing something? 45lbs to 100 lbs is a considerable amount of weight for any size bike. I'm not seeing any similarities, weight-wise.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:41 PM   #1562
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The R 1200 engine weights 71 kg without clutch and gearbox. I do not know how much is the weight of the K 1300 engine. Compare, a KTM 990 engine is about 58 kg.

BMW says the new R 1250 will not be much different by weight. The additional weight of the watercooling is approximately offset by the ll in one case design.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:52 PM   #1563
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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
Am I missing something? 45lbs to 100 lbs is a considerable amount of weight for any size bike. I'm not seeing any similarities, weight-wise.
I was just saying it seems plausible that the difference in weight might be due to differences in the bike in general and not the engine itself.
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:06 PM   #1564
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What's the point of it being a boxer if it's water-cooled? Are we just left with a lower cg? Along those same lines the choice between a Triumph Explorer and a BMW GS Boxer then is engine layout, I guess.

I really liked the fact it didn't have radiators and fans for LC (other than oil cooler) since it seemed like the things always cooked me in some way. Oh well, we'll have to wait and see as to how it does.

I'm thinking there might be a market for a 80 hp traditional boxer GS 800 oil cooled only. Big suspension, no can bus, or ESA, or ASC, (maybe ABS tho, for hypocrisy sake) and very simple with quality components and sell for 14K US. Not like the monster HP2 but simpler, smaller, cheaper. Probably conflicting desires here but it's a fantasy anyway.
I am with you. Go back to simple screw type valve adjusters too. To me, ease of maintenance has always been one of the older boxer's great strengths.

I have a neighbor that owns a Yamaha dealership. I was talking with him a week ago about the Super Tenere. He told me the valve adjustment intervals ,even the initial one, are 26k miles. I said "wow, that's about 4x what my BMW's intervals are". He said that he suspects that most buyers probably won't even ride enough to have to do the first one. I am hoping he's wrong and that people that buy them actually travel on them and enjoy them. I know a lot of BMW riders do.

In a bad year I ride at least 30k miles on a bike. Ease of maintenance is a big deal for me, and I suspect I'm not alone.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:50 PM   #1565
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Originally Posted by Jonesky View Post

I'm thinking there might be a market for a 80 hp traditional boxer GS 800 oil cooled only. Big suspension, no can bus, or ESA, or ASC, (maybe ABS tho, for hypocrisy sake) and very simple with quality components and sell for 14K US. Not like the monster HP2 but simpler, smaller, cheaper. Probably conflicting desires here but it's a fantasy anyway.
Not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago, but time marches on. Just look at what sells.

Each aging generation laments the loss of simpler times. Part of life.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:03 PM   #1566
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"Motorrad" will think about an R95 G/S in the next edition, modern and back to the roots,
it won't happen, too expensive?

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Old 02-13-2012, 01:31 AM   #1567
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It won't happen. It's in the same garden as the F 800 GS.

But how about a lightweight R 1200 GS 'Classic'? Traditional forks, a 90 hp fuel consumption optimized engine, no main stand, lighter exhaust, no U-shape splash guard, and many other details lighter. But not a HP, please.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:06 AM   #1568
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Originally Posted by BCC View Post
Not anymore. Maybe 30 years ago, but time marches on. Just look at what sells.

Each aging generation laments the loss of simpler times. Part of life.
That is very true. Right now we have a HUGE group of aging baby boomers that manufacturers will need to consider though. It may be that a lot of potential buyers for the new GS want easier maintenance and more simplicity. If someone comes out with that product it may be a success just based on who the largest chunk of buyers may be.

I've done maintenance on motorcycles in parking lots in 3rd world countries. Ease of maintenance and being able to easily carry the tools that I need to do it are a big deal for me, as I suspect it is for others. Can you imagine the difficulty in getting the right size shim to adjust your valves in some parts of the world? Some dealers don't even carry all of the possible sizes. There are dealers like South Sound BMW that are well versed in getting parts shipped to about anyplace in the world. I've had them ship parts all over the place and eventually almost always got them. Delays weren't their fault, it can take time for even small parts to clear customs and actually get to you. A real shocker is that comparatively speaking the US postal service is pretty good, there can and will be times that you never do get the parts and need to order them again because they will become lost in some 3rd world countries "system". On a bike like a Super Tenere with 26k mile valve adjustment intervals it's probably not quite as big of a deal. Unless a new liquid cooled boxer has much longer valve adjustment intervals though it will probably still be an issue for some folks.

In my humble opinion, my 07 GSA makes enough power and gets good enough fuel economy. If I couldn't own a GS of that generation I'd be a lot more likely to go with an older version than one of the newer ones.
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:47 AM   #1569
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Originally Posted by peter-k View Post
It won't happen. It's in the same garden as the F 800 GS.

But how about a lightweight R 1200 GS 'Classic'? Traditional forks, a 90 hp fuel consumption optimized engine, no main stand, lighter exhaust, no U-shape splash guard, and many other details lighter. But not a HP, please.
I've been having similar thoughts, but while studying my '82 RS. It does seem like BMW had quite a bit going for it back then with a type of bike that might be desirable now.

Looking at the RS I see a lightweight bike with a full fairing that works well, a seat height that's manageable for almost anyone, and a profile (including saddlebags) that appears holistic and well thought out. Would it be conceivable to create a bike that has the advantages of the old airheads using modern technology? I, too, think perhaps the inclusion of traditional suspension, the exclusion of complex electronics and simplified normal maintenance might appeal to a growing segment in the US and other parts of the world.

But I suppose BMW feels the F 800s fit that category already *shrug*.
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:07 AM   #1570
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Laugh Tsk tsk, reactionaries

Who wants a wooden stove or a radio with valves?
Or car that you have to crank each time you want to go for a spin?
No iphone, no youtube no computors no Starbucks
You can dream all you want, a company like BMW will not even consider going back to the "Good olde days".
There are enough simple bikes out there, a Honda Dream 110 cc for example, they are certainly basic, a couple of millions of Asians use them everyday, they don't have ABS, traction control, canbus, mono swing, fuel injection.
Or maybe a Minsk
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:52 PM   #1571
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Who wants a wooden stove or a radio with valves?
I never knew they had wooden stoves or radios with valves !


But if you have a wood stove, I'll take it !
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #1572
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Originally Posted by rattis View Post
Who wants a wooden stove or a radio with valves?
Or car that you have to crank each time you want to go for a spin?
No iphone, no youtube no computors no Starbucks
You can dream all you want, a company like BMW will not even consider going back to the "Good olde days".
There are enough simple bikes out there, a Honda Dream 110 cc for example, they are certainly basic, a couple of millions of Asians use them everyday, they don't have ABS, traction control, canbus, mono swing, fuel injection.
Or maybe a Minsk
I don't need and I don't use iphone, Starbucks (yucks, I have to protest raping coffee like that). But I do like ABS, fuel injection, canbus, etc etc.

A few weeks ago the German magazine MOTORRAD had a comparison test in between BMW R 100 GS, R 1150 GS, R 1200 GS, and R 80 GS.

MOTORRAD
Quote:
Die Welt verändert sich. Die Ansprüche an die GS auch, und sie hat sich angepasst. Die 1200er ist sicher die beste GS aller Zeiten und erfüllt genau die heute gestellten Ansprüche. Die schwere 1150er kann manches fast genauso gut, doch der Fortschritt ist spürbar - nicht nur bei Getriebe, Bremsen und Fahrwerk. Die alten Zweiventiler glänzen mit Charme und zeigen erstaunliches Stehvermögen. Doch bei Startverhalten, Bremsen, Fahrstabilität etc. trennen Zwei- und Vierventiler Welten. Bezeichnend: Vor allem die R 80 G/S macht auch heute noch Spaß.
Google translation:
Quote:
The world is changing. The requirements on the GS too, and she has adapted. The 1200 GS is definitely the best of all time, fulfils the claims made ​​today. The heavy 1150 can sometimes be almost as good, but the progress is tangible - not only for transmission, brakes and suspension. The old two-valve models shine with charm and they do show amazing stamina. But in terms of starting, braking, stability, etc., two separate worlds divide the two and the four-valve models. Remarkable: In particular, the R 80 G / S is still fun.
Would it be really too difficult combining the old world with all the proven advantages of the modern world? I think, no.
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:24 PM   #1573
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Would it be really too difficult combining the old world with all the proven advantages of the modern world? I think, no.
I think I hear angels singing. That was what I was thinking all along.
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:24 PM   #1574
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... Outside of character, maybe the COG is the only advantage of the boxer engine?
I'm not so sure about a modern boxer having a low center of gravity? I would think a V-twin with the heaviest part of the engine (the crank) positioned low would be better. The boxer has to be raised high to allow cornering clearance. Maybe I'm wrong though.
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Old 02-13-2012, 09:07 PM   #1575
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You know if they get the LC boxer twin right there is nothing stopping a boxer Four. Flat four brings back memories of the early Led Wings!
And that by itself is what would stymie a boxer four.
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