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Old 05-03-2012, 02:44 PM   #1696
hillbillypolack
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Originally Posted by MadMike20 View Post
Regardless of your take, the ability to meet strict emissions requirements in the future will necessitate liquid cooling. Leaner engines produce less pollution but more heat. It’s all been said before. Harley is in the transitioning phase with the V rod and submitting patents for liquid cooled heads/electric pump for their Sportster line up. Porsche transitioned a while back. It is just a matter of time for the rest to do so. Enlightenment on Sundays only.

Not as an absolute. I know what you're saying, but working at an OEM, that's not as simple as you've explained it.

The OVERALL emissions from a manufacturer's fleet is what's rated. Why do you think Audi bought Ducati? That's not just an aspirational purchase. What that means moving forward is now Audi can (at their discretion) manufacture cars which may produce more emissions. That 'less efficient' car is balanced out by their highly efficient fleet of motorcycles. Now look at Lamborghini debuting an SUV (owned by Audi coincidentally). It's been done that way for years, which is why companies like Ford offset truck emissions with small cars.

So, in BMW's case, it's even stronger. Say they go to all water cooled bikes, with ONE exception, to carry on their heritage. The air / oil cooled Boxer. They can get away with it since the remainder of their fleet is more than adequately efficient. Also, the current Boxer meets Euro 5, which isn't even in effect yet, so there is a lot of latitude for developing that engine as an air cooled powerplant. VANOS, etc haven't even been put into play.

Plus, how much power you want? HP2 Sports and R1200S motors were able to reliably meet up to 130hp.
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Old 05-03-2012, 08:49 PM   #1697
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I'm going to throw ya a friendly disagreement and argue that the overall efficiency (CAFE standard) of a fleet is what is measured on a wide scale while pollution is measured with a maximum allowable level per vehicle. If your scenario was correct, a manufacturer could build a few million Chevy Volts and complement them with a free flowing Corvette without catalytic converters, egr valves, pesky O2 sensors etc. It is the efficiency of the Volt( provided they could sell one) that allows GM to produce gas guzzling Tahoes and Yukons to the grocery store hopping public.

In addition, adding a motorcycle brand to your fleet would decrease your allowable emissions because on average a motorcycle emits 10 times more pollution than a passenger car. In the case of Audi's purchase, at barely 50,000 units/year, the addition would barely budge Audi's efficiency. Audi’s purchase is an image enhancer. Notice it is billed as a purchase by Audi and not the parent company Volkswagen.


The only reason the EPA doesn't clamp down on motorcycle emissions as much as they do cars is because they account for a small portion of miles traveled. Nonetheless, the clamping is coming, and if BMW wants to hit the high horsepower numbers with lean burning combustion chambers, they have to liquefy.

I agree with your horsepower comment. In reality, what we have is plenty but that won’t make a glitzy advertisement or front page of a motor rag.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:09 PM   #1698
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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
Maybe you can enlighten us on how Ducati and HD will develop their lineup.
Ducati has a number of water cooled bikes. Diavel series, water cooled. MultiStrada, water cooled, StreetFigher, water cooled, Superbikes (848, 1199) water cooled. Just the Hypermotard (does anyone buy them?) and the Monsters are still air cooled.
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Old 05-04-2012, 07:04 AM   #1699
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I agree with your horsepower comment. In reality, what we have is plenty but that won’t make a glitzy advertisement or front page of a motor rag.
Point taken. As the GS800 seems to fill a niche in the BMW lineup, I just wonder if they won't do something again but with the air cooled Boxer. As it can already meet Euro 5, it may have a longer lifespan than we (and the pessimistic press) would like to believe.

Read this as well as the UNEP link below, as there are more to meeting CAFE and the regulations than simple mpg or emissions. This specifically is a well-used loophole:

There are provisions that allow manufacturers to gain credits for three years and use these credits over a three-year period. Essentially, if you exceed the standard in one year, you can bank that credit and use it if you fail to meet the standard in an upcoming year. The domestic U.S. manufacturers use these credits more than other manufacturers in order to meet the standard every year. The European manufacturers generally just pay the CAFE penalty and the Japanese manufacturers are generally above the CAFE standard. The penalty for failing to meet the CAFE standard is US$5.50 for every 1/10th of a mile per gallon times the manufacturers' entire production of vehicles. So, a manufacturer who makes 2 million cars per year which misses the CAFE target by 1/10th of a mpg would have to pay a fine of $11M.
Cars are subdivided by size class for purposes of determining compliance with the CAFE standards, at least until the most recent changes to the CAFE Standards, where ''footprint'' is used to classify vehicles.
The projected fleet wide average real world model year (MY) 2009 light-duty vehicle CO2 emissions level is 422 grams per mile (g/mi) (291.2 g/km or 12.5 l/100km). The fleet wide average MY2008 value is 424 g/mi (292.6 g/km or 12.6 l/100km)). The MY2008 value is essentially a final value as the database for 2008 includes formal production data for nearly the entire MY2008 fleet, while the projected MY2009 value is based on pre-model year production projections provided by automakers and are therefore much more uncertain. At this time, it is not possible to predict whether the market turmoil in 2009 will yield an actual CO2 emission value that is higher or lower than the preliminary MY2009 value reported here. The preliminary 422 g/mi value for model year 2009 represents a 39 g/mi, or 8%, decrease relative to the 461 g/mi (318.1 g/km or 13.7 l/100km) value for 2004, which was the highest CO2 emissions value since 1980.


I also wonder if motorcycles need to adhere to the Euro regs as yet. I'm not as familiar with Eu 5/6, but it appears it's only for four wheeled vehicle types. Keep in mind, there's the perpetual OEM negotiating between lawmakers, fuel companies etc which has already delayed Euro 5 and 6. So, as a moving target, there's no hard date for adherence to these guidelines. And in turn, no R&D expended to meet them.



UNEP / Automotive fuel policy
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hillbillypolack screwed with this post 05-04-2012 at 07:35 AM
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Old 05-04-2012, 08:15 AM   #1700
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Let's not forget about OBD III. Just a matter of time when cars send messages to "the Man" informing them of emissions compliance. If your check engine light comes on, you receive a letter from the manufacturer that you need service. Third letter and the car is disabled. GM Onstar has the disabling ability now. The Feds wanted clean burning diesels to become disabled if the urea additive was depleted. Mercedes and Volkswagen fought this and now their diesel cars will be disabled after ten or so warnings.

These were the original plans for OBD III but they have run into some resistance. I wouldn't be surprised if OBD III is holding up European regulations since all of the major manufacturers want to have cars produced on similar platforms tweaked for different markets. This could only be achieved if the regulations are alike on both continents. OBD “somethin” for bikes can’t be too far behind.
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Old 05-04-2012, 09:28 AM   #1701
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Good to see this thread active again, rehashing topics that were rehashed 50 pages or so ago.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:44 AM   #1702
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Good to see this thread active again, rehashing topics that were rehashed 50 pages or so ago.
So discussing 'why' water cooling is on the table is irrelevant???

The topic and adherence to Euro and CAFE standards isn't as simple as noise regs, MPG regs, emissions, etc. It's a multifaceted problem, and can easily be avoided with a number of clever legal options, lobbying, and technology. This thread to date has pointed out the technology, not about grandfathering in vehicle types, fleet compliance or legislation loopholes.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #1703
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... Nonetheless, the clamping is coming, and if BMW wants to hit the high horsepower numbers with lean burning combustion chambers, they have to liquefy.

....
Inmates have already reported in the last year being surveyed by govt entities on how many miles/year they drive and for what purposes. If you get a survey like this, it's in your interest to tell them 20 miles a month down a country road and back.
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:33 PM   #1704
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So discussing 'why' water cooling is on the table is irrelevant???
Hey, discuss away. Words are free!
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Old 05-04-2012, 12:44 PM   #1705
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130hp GS would be nice..
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:54 PM   #1706
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True, I would be amazed if it weights even the same as the current models. But that's why they had the HP2. Very few owners actually ride it off-road. This forum just makes it look like that.



I am still waiting for 2WD version...
You mean like this one???





Or how about this model???



You can read all about them here:
http://www.mobec-international.com/technical/index.html

What will those Germans think of next?
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Old 05-04-2012, 01:56 PM   #1707
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. . . and for manufacturers, it would never do to have a flagship with substantially lower output than their competitors.
You seem to forget about a certain "Motor Company" based in the land of beer and cheeses...
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Old 05-04-2012, 03:48 PM   #1708
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Jim
There goes our Mobil1 15w-50 auto oil....

Actually, if the clutch is designed correctly, we can run Energy Conserving oils without concern.
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:22 AM   #1709
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I am curious to see what the new water buffalo ends up looking like, both inside and out.

Yes, I love having all of the extra horsepower and TORQUE of the 110hp R1200 motor vs. the previous R100 Airhead putting out only 60 crank ponies that I had pulling my former sidecar rig.
And who wouldn't want even MORE power when lugging a big sidecar along with you?

But like many who have commented, I REALLY like my screw-adjusted valves that are easy to take care of with a couple of simple tools in a campsite when I am out on an extended tour...
I don't even like the thought of accidentally dropping the cam assembly in the dirt while trying to change a shim.
(assuming that you carry a selection of shims with you on your trip or can find the right one conveniently...)
A valve cover can be wiped clean easily if needed. How do you make sure that you get all of the grit out of a cam assembly after dropping it in the dirt without a parts washer handy???

It is the ability to EASILY maintain the bike in the field during 6,000+ mile tours that will attract me.

Even with my 2005 R1200RT with the servo brakes, I can pretty easily even perform a brake system bleed using the "suction hose" method to keep the servo unit filled during the procedure.
All you need is some tubing and a small wrench to open the bleed valves!
(I had to do it because of crushing the brake line leading out to the sidecar wheel after hitting a 'whoop' a little too hard on a section of dirt road out in Nevada...)



And yes, the Roadster IS simply the better looking sister to the GS...
"Road" bikes are quite capable, even in gravel and some mud...

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Old 05-07-2012, 12:34 AM   #1710
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I LOOOVE that 1150R. I think it's the best looking roadster they've ever made (exept from the old ones) .
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