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Old 03-30-2011, 09:01 AM   #241
tallguy-09
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Good point! Me too I like the first 1980 R80G/S, it evolved into something else over the next 30 years, something different not better or worse.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:36 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by CapCal1000 View Post
I don't post much but I'll throw in my .02 here. I have a 2008 GSA that I ride on everything from expressway to single track and while I have fallen deeply in love with it, I scratch my head on every ride wondering what the BMW engineers were thinking.

Vertical intake and exhaust? My scarred up shins have been begging for it. How many times do I need to slice my leg open on the f-ing throttle position sensor? (I know, there's a farkle for that right?)

Water cooled? How many times have I had to shut off the engine while stuck in traffic because it's overheating. (living near the equator)

Stranded in the jungle with fuel pump failure (only 1500 miles since new). Yep, that's me!

Too tall 1st gear, too short 6th gear, dry clutch... Do the engineers even ride these things??

The disappointing thing for me is that it's emissions or the competition who has forced BMW to advance (even if only slightly) their design, not the desire to improve or admit that there has been some engine development in the last 50 years. As another poster pointed out, with water cooling we can lose the boxer and it's wacky power curve (please!) and make the ol' girl a bit thinner.

I'll qualify my remarks by stating I'm a 30-something who holds more regard for a better product than I do for nostalgia. I want Motorrad to be all it can be. I love my GS! I love the solid feel of quality. I'm not bashing the bike (just the designers, sorry BMW lovers!) but because I love it I feel more than just physical pain when it bites me.

When the Japanese figure out how to make their new "adventure" bikes (will they be nuclear powered now? Too soon? ) feel a little less like Toyotas and a little more like Mercedes it will spell real trouble for Motorrad. Unfortunately it's unlikely as it would require a cultural (read: impossible) shift in Japanese engineering. The Japanese prefer to imitate (they call it "benchmarking") rather than lead.

Sorry, it was more like 10 cents..
What engine design?? Sounds to me like you really want a KTM 990 Adventure but actually need a CRF230L. I'd be willing to bet that von Kuenheim and Robb would spank your happy little butt in riding, designing or marketing BMWs. By the way, at one of the press junkets a female marketing manager was chasing down wayward journalists on an S1000RR. So, yeah, they ride.
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Old 03-30-2011, 09:51 AM   #243
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All interesting takes. I wanted to go on record that I love technology when it works for me. Water cooling for example, HUGE step forward on two strokes!! Except for vintage's sake, I couldn't see myself NOT riding a water cooled two stroke. CRF's and the like? Same story I think but I expect a rocket ship to take off like a rocket ship! On the other hand, I love riding slow bikes fast on the street because you are on the street and what else can you do if you want to live and/or keep your license but dirt bikes in general and two strokes in general are a different story. They have performance I expect to use!

Water cooled four stroke street bikes? Most all of them are hotter than hell to ride in the heat for a lot of reasons that I rarely get into. YZF? I wouldn't have them air cooled. KLR? I would rather have an air cooled DR.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me but I do hope you get an understanding of where I am coming from.

supershaft screwed with this post 03-30-2011 at 09:58 AM
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:47 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by kvr929rr View Post
What engine design?? Sounds to me like you really want a KTM 990 Adventure but actually need a CRF230L. I'd be willing to bet that von Kuenheim and Robb would spank your happy little butt in riding, designing or marketing BMWs. By the way, at one of the press junkets a female marketing manager was chasing down wayward journalists on an S1000RR. So, yeah, they ride.
I'd gladly let the female marketing manager do the spanking!

By all accounts KTM are real heart breakers. Equal amounts of passion and disappointment.

The GS does it all for me and I love it. Because I love it I want it to be better! If it's the embodiment of perfection from the factory, why all the farkles? Is it a crime to want improvement? Obviously I'm not their target demographic. Even if they wanted to leave the boxer behind, the marketing department will not allow it.

Ironically the 50+ crowd who demands continuity of dated GS design elements are the same people driving I-Drive 7 Series with Blackberry's and satellite television. Might even own a gps too..

Now, where's my brick-phone and what do we need this internet thing for??


CapCal1000 screwed with this post 03-30-2011 at 08:20 PM
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Old 03-31-2011, 10:37 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by supershaft View Post
All interesting takes. I wanted to go on record that I love technology when it works for me. Water cooling for example, HUGE step forward on two strokes!! Except for vintage's sake, I couldn't see myself NOT riding a water cooled two stroke. CRF's and the like? Same story I think but I expect a rocket ship to take off like a rocket ship! On the other hand, I love riding slow bikes fast on the street because you are on the street and what else can you do if you want to live and/or keep your license but dirt bikes in general and two strokes in general are a different story. They have performance I expect to use!

Water cooled four stroke street bikes? Most all of them are hotter than hell to ride in the heat for a lot of reasons that I rarely get into. YZF? I wouldn't have them air cooled. KLR? I would rather have an air cooled DR.

I am not asking anyone to agree with me but I do hope you get an understanding of where I am coming from.
I do tend to agree with you. Especially the part about heat on water cooled street bikes.
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Old 03-31-2011, 07:50 PM   #246
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Man! I thought there was going to be thousands of our kind jumping on this!
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Old 04-01-2011, 03:07 AM   #247
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I keep coming back to this post hoping to hear some FACTS about the new water or air cooled GS. But in reality BMW has a proven history of keeping new models off the radar until they’re ready to hit the show room floor.

What I do find comforting (based on the recent comparo from Fast Bikes) is that the current 2011 GSA, which is basically a 5+ old design, but with HP2 heads bested the latest/greatest offerings from Ducati and YAM (both have more power/water cooled). Fast Bikes even went further and said that if it was a 2009 GS, the results would still be the same, wow!

I’m confident that BMW will make further improvements with the new, yet to be released GS/GSA. As for me, I’m not so concerned if the new GS will be water cooled or have 10 to 40 more h.p., but rather improvements/changes such as weight, suspension, braking, handling, ASC and xenon/adjustable headlights – to name a few.

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Old 04-01-2011, 09:28 AM   #248
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The reality from BMW is simply this.....based on their own words from their own magazine......"the current generation boxer is as evolved as it could be, it will not see another revision. A new water-air cooled boxer is being developed/tested to meet Euro 3 and eventually Euro 5 smog certification."

I say debate all you want, but let the reality set in!

A new engine sounds good to me but the current engine thats been paid for sounds better!! Still, I'll love seeming the engineering behind the new motor along with appreciating the simplicity of where things started.
Je suis d'accord.
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Old 04-03-2011, 09:28 AM   #249
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I don't thimk anyone has mentioned the absence of an oil pan. This is a drysump engine, thus lowering the engine in the chassis by 3-4 inches. The extra room in the cam drive gallery of the heads could be for variable valve timing apparatus which was mentioned in the BMW Motorcycle Magazine interview about the new boxer about a year ago. Notice the watercooling passages bypass the cylinders and only supply water cooling for the heads, thus air/oil would still provide cooling for the cylinder walls and the pistons. As mentioned by others here the lower front portion of the crankcase should provide for a stator and alternator windings possibly imbalanced to provide part of the balance shaft of the engine. With the wet clutch we finally have a single oil crancase for the engine, transmission and alternator with the subsequent minimum number of shaft oil seals involved similiar to any modern engine/transmission now available. Reliability should likely rise in accordance. My $.02.
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Old 04-03-2011, 07:54 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by simoneau View Post
I don't thimk anyone has mentioned the absence of an oil pan. This is a drysump engine, thus lowering the engine in the chassis by 3-4 inches. The extra room in the cam drive gallery of the heads could be for variable valve timing apparatus which was mentioned in the BMW Motorcycle Magazine interview about the new boxer about a year ago. Notice the watercooling passages bypass the cylinders and only supply water cooling for the heads, thus air/oil would still provide cooling for the cylinder walls and the pistons. As mentioned by others here the lower front portion of the crankcase should provide for a stator and alternator windings possibly imbalanced to provide part of the balance shaft of the engine. With the wet clutch we finally have a single oil crancase for the engine, transmission and alternator with the subsequent minimum number of shaft oil seals involved similiar to any modern engine/transmission now available. Reliability should likely rise in accordance. My $.02.


All I understood from the picture was that the engine is missing some parts
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:37 PM   #251
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Dry sump is a biggie , I have herd that one reason that the boxer is limited is crank case pressure. I remember reading about such things as reed valves to allow the crank case to breath better in Racing BMW's. I would think if more power it would mean more rev's and more heat then there are a few issues that would need looking at.
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Old 04-04-2011, 08:02 AM   #252
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Dry sump is a biggie , I have herd that one reason that the boxer is limited is crank case pressure. I remember reading about such things as reed valves to allow the crank case to breath better in Racing BMW's. I would think if more power it would mean more rev's and more heat then there are a few issues that would need looking at.
I had never thought about that issue. There must be some significant pressure fluctuations with both piston compressing then expanding at the same time. Dry sump could definitely help eliminate the headache.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:50 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by simoneau View Post
I don't thimk anyone has mentioned the absence of an oil pan. This is a drysump engine, thus lowering the engine in the chassis by 3-4 inches. The extra room in the cam drive gallery of the heads could be for variable valve timing apparatus which was mentioned in the BMW Motorcycle Magazine interview about the new boxer about a year ago. Notice the watercooling passages bypass the cylinders and only supply water cooling for the heads, thus air/oil would still provide cooling for the cylinder walls and the pistons. As mentioned by others here the lower front portion of the crankcase should provide for a stator and alternator windings possibly imbalanced to provide part of the balance shaft of the engine. With the wet clutch we finally have a single oil crancase for the engine, transmission and alternator with the subsequent minimum number of shaft oil seals involved similiar to any modern engine/transmission now available. Reliability should likely rise in accordance. My $.02.

Lowering the CG is a huge benefit if what you described is true.

The other point I'm curious about is 'if' the water cooling is only for the heads, does that mean a smaller water circuit (hence less mass/volume added)? It sounds like its designed to eliminate redundant mass (the common oil volume for one example), and with newer casting techniques the overall engine weight may be comparable to the current model. (Ducati 1098 and 848 castings as one example of thinner wall castings and weight being minimized).

I have to say that I think the existing engine is under-stressed. Meaning that it's robust enough for future power increases as witnessed in the HP2s and R1200S. I really don't want to see the added complexity of a water circuit and all the BS that goes with it.

BUT. One thing I loathe on the existing boxer is the resonating feeling of that engine at 70-85 mph. If this architecture has better power flexibility, better (lower) CG and buttery smooth power at highway speeds, it may not be all bad.

I still think the HP2 MM and HP2e should have a place in the lineup though.
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Old 04-05-2011, 10:28 AM   #254
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What I do find comforting (based on the recent comparo from Fast Bikes) is that the current 2011 GSA, which is basically a 5+ old design, but with HP2 heads bested the latest/greatest offerings from Ducati and YAM (both have more power/water cooled). Fast Bikes even went further and said that if it was a 2009 GS, the results would still be the same, wow!
C'mon, that Fastbikes comparo was a joke - as are most of the tests coming out of Brit rags of its ilk (Bike etc.) They never took the bikes off road at all, yet were of the opinion that the GS was the best off-road. Give me a break...

They also mention a bunch of "niggles" about the Super Tenere that no other testers - or owners - have. bad seat? poor fuel economy? excessive oil consumption? No owner has mentioned these as issues in the year the S10 has been available - in fact they've said the opposite.

True it's overpriced in the UK (though not by as much as the FB boys reckon) but I think it compares very favourably with the GS in the US market.

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Old 04-05-2011, 12:06 PM   #255
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I don't believe this is a dry sump engine. Dry sump engines have a greater tendency to pump oil into the airbox in general and my K12 does it at high revs so much that BMW included a drain hose. The higher pressures of the boxer engine would make this even worse unless BMW came up with a better air/oil separator than they currently have. Also, lowering the engine very much would take away lean angle and not necessarily help the handling. Dropping the crankshaft 4 inches would relegate you to parade duty next to the Harleys. Honda found out that lowering the CG even an inch changes the handling/steering characteristics of a motorcycle for the worse. I'm actually trying to raise the CG of my K12 to see if I can get it to steer as easily as my GSA. Also, on the 2006 CBR1000RR the bike handles a lot better when you put on a bigger 190/55 rear tire and push the forks down in the top bridge. Water cooling the heads makes the most sense though, probably with an electric water pump like they do on their cars
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