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Old 03-12-2013, 03:47 AM   #6361
GSMarc
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Just reflecting, I think this :

KTM has multiple enduro world victories, that means they know their business.
I suppose their knowledge on small bikes has been used to the buiding of their AdvR model (smal ==> big)

In the other way, BMW had a 'GS Adv' bike and I suppose their knowledge was used in the same way to build their G450X (big ==> small);

And the result was

I don't pretend my way of thinking beeing the truth
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:24 AM   #6362
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Originally Posted by GSMarc View Post
Just reflecting, I think this :

KTM has multiple enduro world victories, that means they know their business.
I suppose their knowledge on small bikes has been used to the buiding of their AdvR model (smal ==> big)

In the other way, BMW had a 'GS Adv' bike and I suppose their knowledge was used in the same way to build their G450X (big ==> small);

And the result was

I don't pretend my way of thinking beeing the truth
Actually you should make some further research about BMW's background in enduro...
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:31 AM   #6363
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The lights and turn signal delays have to be done by the dealer, but you can display current and average consumption on the computer pro.
Thanks for your reply. Can you change current and average consumption from miles/gallon to miles/liter to km/liter ? Or do the dealer have to do that ?

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Old 03-12-2013, 04:57 AM   #6364
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Thanks for your reply. Can you change current and average consumption from miles/gallon to miles/liter to km/liter ? Or do the dealer have to do that ?

Max :-)
Usually this is a regional preset, but can changed from dealer.
I don't expect this changed.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:06 AM   #6365
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Thanks for your comments and arguments for what you believe is the best endure bike for you. It is all subjective because we all have different needs and requirements regarding choice of motorcycle. I have great respect for all those that take time to understand the advantages and disadvantages of the many different motorcycle models in order to make a better choice. For some the new KTM 1190R is the perfect choice and for others a simple light single-cylinder motorcycle is par because they only spend time on the very narrow and demanding tracks.

The new BMW R1200GS LC hits the sweet spot for me in relation to my needs. For me the motorcycle is just a tool that I use in the pursuit of adventure and easy maintenance is more important than marginal better off-road capability. I rider more than 50.000 km per year on- and off-road, so for me the shaft drive on the 1200 GS LC is more important than the 21" front wheel on a KTM.

If you have other requirements than me and choose a KTM, Duc or Guzzi then it is perfect. I can only hope that you all get the motorcycle that fulfills your needs.

So one more time: The new BMW 1200GS LC is the best allround enduro bike available today FOR ME

Max :-)
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:41 AM   #6366
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It is weird how often this thing comes up in new model threads (ESPECIALLY BMW new models mind you...).

(and yes of course it is a subjective matter, else there would remain one vendor with one model)
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:31 AM   #6367
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Originally Posted by NLS View Post

To me GS and KTM Adventures are the only "dual" bikes that still successfully keep the off-road part "close at heart". All others fall behind (and let's not open again the discussion that it's the rider not the bike and all bikes can do more things than their rider and blah blah).


I think the Yamaha Super Tenere has a part to play in your statement above, at least in the liter-class bikes that we've been discussing. I test rode the Tenere, and while it didn't really make me want to buy it (not sure why....I did go there to buy it, and the price was fantastic, $11,900 for a brand new one, but it didn't excite me), it is a VERY capable motorcycle and many on the Tenere thread have shown it is quite at home off-road.

The good news is we have so many choices now. It's great that people have passion for their choice/brand, but these absolute statements "only this bike can this.....well, maybe this and that bike, but only those two".....hah. You say sales make the measure of which is best? Well, if I were going to use my big trailie for 50/50 riding, I'd be in line to buy the new KTM, THEN the Tenere, and last the BMW. But honestly, I'd ride any of them and be quite happy.

-SM
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:51 AM   #6368
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Originally Posted by Sock Monkey View Post


I think the Yamaha Super Tenere has a part to play in your statement above, at least in the liter-class bikes that we've been discussing. I test rode the Tenere, and while it didn't really make me want to buy it (not sure why....I did go there to buy it, and the price was fantastic, $11,900 for a brand new one, but it didn't excite me), it is a VERY capable motorcycle and many on the Tenere thread have shown it is quite at home off-road.

The good news is we have so many choices now. It's great that people have passion for their choice/brand, but these absolute statements "only this bike can this.....well, maybe this and that bike, but only those two".....hah. You say sales make the measure of which is best? Well, if I were going to use my big trailie for 50/50 riding, I'd be in line to buy the new KTM, THEN the Tenere, and last the BMW. But honestly, I'd ride any of them and be quite happy.

-SM
I agree.
In my case when buying a motorcycle (no necessity for me, a toy!) I'm thinking premium brand and a Yamaha or Honda is simply not on the radar right now, KTM and Triumph neither.
I really like the boxer configuration and the attention to every little detail and long history of the GS model. That's why the 2013 R1200GS LC Enduro is the motorcycle I'll buy in 2 years or so trading my 2010.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:19 AM   #6369
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Originally Posted by tallguy-09 View Post
In my case when buying a motorcycle (no necessity for me, a toy!) I'm thinking premium brand and a Yamaha or Honda is simply not on the radar right now, KTM and Triumph neither.
I wouldn't say that BMW or Ducati or so are the only premium brands, but I have to say that the others have to catch up with some of the features that make these two feel "more premium".

Part of it is the love for detail in instrumentation and controls. Yamaha and to a degree Honda give the rider an absolutely shitty experience with regard to controlling the existing features. A rider needs controls on the handlebar, easily reachable and ergonomically sound, well integrated, not "third party looking". Yamaha is really the worst in that regard. The control for the heated grip looks like it could have come from Lada, not from a premium Japanese brand.

Ducati has caught on to BMW in that regard with the Multistrada - away from off the shelf controls to ones that actually reflect the features and are well integrated. Triumph has gone the same route, but only with the Explorer, the Tiger 800 still has pretty much off the shelf components. KTM has started that now with the 1190 Adventure.

The above gives the same "premium feel" a well designed modern car can give. And, I'm sorry, but the Japanese have absolutely no clue how to design a human interface - be that a car, a phone, a DVD player, or a motorcycle. Either they don't care or they don't want to spend the very significant amount of HI engineering - time and money - required to build such a thing. They mostly follow the "hey, we have a new feature, let's bolt on another ugly button somewhere" paradigm. It makes the bikes much more affordable, but also very much cheaper feeling. And that doesn't mean that the components are cheaper - it's just that you can see that there isn't as much thought or love for detail in the thing.

You can literally feel that their target is not to build the best experience for the rider, but to build something mechanically sound and don't care for the experience. Often enough that makes the results more robust because there is no need for "making it nice". Just take something you have and you know that works, bolt it on no matter how it looks. That often gets you a more robust system, but it really sucks using it. Especially if you work in an area where such things are a number one priority.

Oh, and to put a damper on your "premium brand feel" with BMW, look at a modern Harley Davidson and it shows you how controls should feel like. The layout on the BMW is thought out and optimized and custom, but the execution is flimsy, cheap, and crappy compared to a HD. That's really, really annoying. BMW stops at a different point on the road to great user experience. They think a lot about how to control the various systems, but then an accountant steps in and tells them to make every button, every control a dollar cheaper. On a 20k USD bike - they are nuts. Just swallow that little hit in the margin and do it right. Can't be that much ...

Sorry for the rant, just annoyance for pretty much all manufacturers coming up again.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:48 AM   #6370
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Originally Posted by NLS View Post
It has a shift light? Wow... cool.
Something from an S1000RR.
It's an economy shift light, not a redline shift light...so I suppose it lights up each time you exceed 4,000 rpm or something....shut mine off.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:22 AM   #6371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
I wouldn't say that BMW or Ducati or so are the only premium brands, but I have to say that the others have to catch up with some of the features that make these two feel "more premium".

Part of it is the love for detail in instrumentation and controls. Yamaha and to a degree Honda give the rider an absolutely shitty experience with regard to controlling the existing features. A rider needs controls on the handlebar, easily reachable and ergonomically sound, well integrated, not "third party looking". Yamaha is really the worst in that regard. The control for the heated grip looks like it could have come from Lada, not from a premium Japanese brand.

Ducati has caught on to BMW in that regard with the Multistrada - away from off the shelf controls to ones that actually reflect the features and are well integrated. Triumph has gone the same route, but only with the Explorer, the Tiger 800 still has pretty much off the shelf components. KTM has started that now with the 1190 Adventure.

The above gives the same "premium feel" a well designed modern car can give. And, I'm sorry, but the Japanese have absolutely no clue how to design a human interface - be that a car, a phone, a DVD player, or a motorcycle. Either they don't care or they don't want to spend the very significant amount of HI engineering - time and money - required to build such a thing. They mostly follow the "hey, we have a new feature, let's bolt on another ugly button somewhere" paradigm. It makes the bikes much more affordable, but also very much cheaper feeling. And that doesn't mean that the components are cheaper - it's just that you can see that there isn't as much thought or love for detail in the thing.

You can literally feel that their target is not to build the best experience for the rider, but to build something mechanically sound and don't care for the experience. Often enough that makes the results more robust because there is no need for "making it nice". Just take something you have and you know that works, bolt it on no matter how it looks. That often gets you a more robust system, but it really sucks using it. Especially if you work in an area where such things are a number one priority.

Oh, and to put a damper on your "premium brand feel" with BMW, look at a modern Harley Davidson and it shows you how controls should feel like. The layout on the BMW is thought out and optimized and custom, but the execution is flimsy, cheap, and crappy compared to a HD. That's really, really annoying. BMW stops at a different point on the road to great user experience. They think a lot about how to control the various systems, but then an accountant steps in and tells them to make every button, every control a dollar cheaper. On a 20k USD bike - they are nuts. Just swallow that little hit in the margin and do it right. Can't be that much ...

Sorry for the rant, just annoyance for pretty much all manufacturers coming up again.
That was a good read! Agree with you on the cost cutting issue. As much as I like the new BMW handlebar controls for example the old looked a lot more robust to me...
HD? No, no I'm talking motorcycle. Apparently you get the HD for free, however, you pay for the lifestyle that comes with it :-)
BMW could have integrated the iPhone into the controls somehow (as simple Nav. for example), that would have been so nice.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:26 AM   #6372
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Originally Posted by MaxReving View Post
Thanks for your reply. Can you change current and average consumption from miles/gallon to miles/liter to km/liter ? Or do the dealer have to do that ?

Max :-)
Yep, that's a dealer thing
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:26 AM   #6373
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Originally Posted by NLS View Post
It has a shift light? Wow... cool.
Something from an S1000RR.
You'd be surprised how much S1000RR tech has gone into the 2013 GS
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:29 AM   #6374
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Originally Posted by cug View Post
I wouldn't say that BMW or Ducati or so are the only premium brands, but I have to say that the others have to catch up with some of the features that make these two feel "more premium".

Part of it is the love for detail in instrumentation and controls. Yamaha and to a degree Honda give the rider an absolutely shitty experience with regard to controlling the existing features. A rider needs controls on the handlebar, easily reachable and ergonomically sound, well integrated, not "third party looking". Yamaha is really the worst in that regard. The control for the heated grip looks like it could have come from Lada, not from a premium Japanese brand.

Ducati has caught on to BMW in that regard with the Multistrada - away from off the shelf controls to ones that actually reflect the features and are well integrated. Triumph has gone the same route, but only with the Explorer, the Tiger 800 still has pretty much off the shelf components. KTM has started that now with the 1190 Adventure.

The above gives the same "premium feel" a well designed modern car can give. And, I'm sorry, but the Japanese have absolutely no clue how to design a human interface - be that a car, a phone, a DVD player, or a motorcycle. Either they don't care or they don't want to spend the very significant amount of HI engineering - time and money - required to build such a thing. They mostly follow the "hey, we have a new feature, let's bolt on another ugly button somewhere" paradigm. It makes the bikes much more affordable, but also very much cheaper feeling. And that doesn't mean that the components are cheaper - it's just that you can see that there isn't as much thought or love for detail in the thing.

You can literally feel that their target is not to build the best experience for the rider, but to build something mechanically sound and don't care for the experience. Often enough that makes the results more robust because there is no need for "making it nice". Just take something you have and you know that works, bolt it on no matter how it looks. That often gets you a more robust system, but it really sucks using it. Especially if you work in an area where such things are a number one priority.

Oh, and to put a damper on your "premium brand feel" with BMW, look at a modern Harley Davidson and it shows you how controls should feel like. The layout on the BMW is thought out and optimized and custom, but the execution is flimsy, cheap, and crappy compared to a HD. That's really, really annoying. BMW stops at a different point on the road to great user experience. They think a lot about how to control the various systems, but then an accountant steps in and tells them to make every button, every control a dollar cheaper. On a 20k USD bike - they are nuts. Just swallow that little hit in the margin and do it right. Can't be that much ...

Sorry for the rant, just annoyance for pretty much all manufacturers coming up again.
Very well said. I test rode a Super Tenere when I was bike shopping last year, and while it had plenty of power and seemed very capable, it just felt "cheap". Not in a construction quality sense, but more in a design and material selection sense. You've articulated my feelings much more thoughtfully, but in the end it comes down to how the rider perceives the riding experience... or not. Just like some folks like Camrys because they're looking for basic transportation, while others like luxury cars for the creature comforts, the same thing applies to bikes - and there are customers for bikes that fit into both categories.
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Old 03-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #6375
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Originally Posted by Sock Monkey View Post


I think the Yamaha Super Tenere has a part to play in your statement above, at least in the liter-class bikes that we've been discussing. I test rode the Tenere, and while it didn't really make me want to buy it (not sure why....I did go there to buy it, and the price was fantastic, $11,900 for a brand new one, but it didn't excite me), it is a VERY capable motorcycle and many on the Tenere thread have shown it is quite at home off-road.

The good news is we have so many choices now. It's great that people have passion for their choice/brand, but these absolute statements "only this bike can this.....well, maybe this and that bike, but only those two".....hah. You say sales make the measure of which is best? Well, if I were going to use my big trailie for 50/50 riding, I'd be in line to buy the new KTM, THEN the Tenere, and last the BMW. But honestly, I'd ride any of them and be quite happy.

-SM
Well good for you.
BTW $11900 is FAN-tastic price for a brand new one (I would buy it to sell it). I wonder why they gave such a price when (at least in my local market) when Super Tenere was first introduced actually cost MORE than a new GS. Makes you think... hmmm hmmmmmm...

BTW since I have tested thoroughly those three. Tenere is in no way in front of GS for 50/50 riding (and I mean by far). We can disagree right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cug View Post
...
Good read indeed. Yet I cannot compare GS to any HD because my feeling about (CURRENT) HD is summed by a single word: Cr*p. (not the thread to analyze this)
EDIT: One small comment. Try to think the (vastly different than 30 years ago) target market of HD right now. You will realize that they HAD to be like that. How else would the dentist use it to go to his office?

I do agree though that there are things on GS that could be $1 more expensive and give out a dis-proportionally better product. This in NEW GS is in a way way way lesser extend though.
(they even make their bolts with BMW carved on them)

Quote:
Originally Posted by EJ_92606 View Post
It's an economy shift light, not a redline shift light...so I suppose it lights up each time you exceed 4,000 rpm or something....shut mine off.
Damn. Well I could dream. :) BTW an economy meter would be great for MY kind of riding. :P
(and would be constantly on)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tallguy-09 View Post
That was a good read! Agree with you on the cost cutting issue. As much as I like the new BMW handlebar controls for example the old looked a lot more robust to me...
HD? No, no I'm talking motorcycle. Apparently you get the HD for free, however, you pay for the lifestyle that comes with it :-)
BMW could have integrated the iPhone into the controls somehow (as simple Nav. for example), that would have been so nice.
iPhone? Hope you realize there are way better devices out there (1000 times less restricted too). Sales verify me (although in this field I wouldn't want verification as I consider myself a rather good expert).
I wouldn't criticize, but you have it in the same statement with HD... iPhone IS the HD of smartphones.
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