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Old 01-12-2012, 01:58 AM   #1351
Jonny955
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Question Higher CofG?

Hi.

I'm always interested in new models, especially in the Adventure bike market. I've been taking a look at these pictures and the thing that struck me was how high the cylinders appear to be placed. Now, this could be a trick of the angle or whatever but the cylinders appear to be mounted higher than the 'old' R12GS, perhaps such that the top edge of the fins is level with the top of the tyres.

Has this been done to raise ground clearance and if so, what affect would this have on the legendary GS handling? There are both advantages and disadvantages off-road but it doesn't bode well for picking up the bike, especially if a few pounds are being added to the mix....

Jon
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:21 AM   #1352
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The water jackets increased the width of the cylinders. To maintain the max achievable lean angle, the cylinders were raised higher.

At least, that's my guess after noting the same thing.

How much it will affect COG and handling is anyone's guess.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:00 AM   #1353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
The water jackets increased the width of the cylinders. To maintain the max achievable lean angle, the cylinders were raised higher.
At least, that's my guess after noting the same thing.
How much it will affect COG and handling is anyone's guess.
Width increase is speculation and the cylinders could have moved up a bit because of the new overall engine layout.
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:50 AM   #1354
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Originally Posted by tallguy-09 View Post
Width increase is speculation and the cylinders could have moved up a bit because of the new overall engine layout.
Well, I will not deny that "my guess" = "speculation."
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Old 01-12-2012, 01:35 PM   #1355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarvis View Post
The water jackets increased the width of the cylinders.
Hmmm, but I didn't think the cylinders were water cooled. I'm trying to remember the write-up with pics of the new case I read last year -- or was in in 2010? I thought there was a channel through the cylinders to get to the head, but the cylinders still relied on being out in the air stream. I don't trust my memory so may be more full of crap than usual.

Also, I don't think the cylinders are any higher. Looks more like the angle of the photograph... Let's see....



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Old 01-12-2012, 02:05 PM   #1356
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I .....don't think the over all width of the engine is any wider.
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Old 01-12-2012, 02:06 PM   #1357
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The cylinders and heads will certainly be water cooled. What else?? These are the places where the heat is generated, much in the heads...exhaust gases flow thru the head. that is the place where the most heat news to be dissipated. Actually my ..guess.. that a water cooled head would be more compact than one that relied on air cooling. Water is a MUCH better media to transfer heat vs air.

Also not sure that the cylinders are higher now.....but could be as the transmission is in the engine case below the engine per the drawings that have been circulating. my guess the CofG would be the same or better than current models
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Old 01-12-2012, 05:22 PM   #1358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marchyman View Post
Hmmm, but I didn't think the cylinders were water cooled. I'm trying to remember the write-up with pics of the new case I read last year -- or was in in 2010? I thought there was a channel through the cylinders to get to the head, but the cylinders still relied on being out in the air stream. I don't trust my memory so may be more full of crap than usual.

Also, I don't think the cylinders are any higher. Looks more like the angle of the photograph... Let's see....



View from side, a bit higher I'd say but yes the bike is leaned over to the other side what makes
the cylinders look higher up...


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Old 01-12-2012, 08:46 PM   #1359
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It looks like they changed the design of the cast wheels to make them look spindly. All the more reason to drop 2 large on the spoke wheels.


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Old 01-12-2012, 09:25 PM   #1360
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More Boxer Water Coolness

http://www.motorcycle.com/manufactur...iew-91202.html
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Old 01-12-2012, 10:11 PM   #1361
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Originally Posted by Poolside View Post
It looks like they changed the design of the cast wheels to make them look spindly. All the more reason to drop 2 large on the spoke wheels.
And I suspect that they'll include the "soft alloy safety feature" used in the first-gen oilheads too.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:03 AM   #1362
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And I suspect that they'll include the "soft alloy safety feature" used in the first-gen oilheads too.
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Old 01-14-2012, 07:30 PM   #1363
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter-k View Post
Where you are getting these information from, it's wrong.

Mr. von Künheim says the company is perfectly capable of getting the air-cooled engines through not just the next round of Euro emissions regulations but the ones after those too. He stated that several times in front of the press. He further says the air cooled boxer engine will still exist for a while in form of Classic versions, for as long as people buy them. No details about these Classic versions are provided.

Euro 3 scooters and motorcycles up to 125 cc: 2016
Euro 4 / 5 motorcycles above 125 ccm: 2016
Euro 6 motorcycles above 125 cc: 2020
This makes far far more sense to me in light of BMW's engineering prowess.

1) if the HP2 Sport generated 133hp from a camhead engine and still wasn't near it's power potential, that tells me the overall engine 'architecture' is under-stressed. Not only the HP2 Sport, but what about the R1200S based on the hexhead? These two bikes illustrate to me the flexibility of power delivery that still has not been tapped in the GS model lineup. I.E., even with incremental changes, there is more to be had from that engine architecture (see also the 1270cc thread)

2) GS riders / owners don't value peak horsepower as much as subtlety, control and torque delivery.

3) if BMW wants to differentiate themselves at all, why play the same water-cooled game as their competitors? Any entrepreneur will tell you that if you want to win any segment, don't play the same game as your competition.

BMW has a reliable history of continent-crossing success with the venerable air-cooled engine. Re-configuring it, optimizing it would be more sensible that just heading down the water cooled 'me-too' soup line.

4) Based on other BMW engine innovations (VANOS, etc) and developments in engine coatings to reduce and dissipate heat, minimize friction and understand engine stresses better, I could see an air-cooled engine for at least a decade or more. Emissions considerations will be an equivalent concern for any other OEM, whether water cooled or otherwise.

I'd like to see BMW think outside the box and alter their air-cooled engine in a way to optimize what the GS stands for. . . and not follow in the footsteps of other OEMs.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:05 PM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
This makes far far more sense to me in light of BMW's engineering prowess.

1) if the HP2 Sport generated 133hp from a camhead engine and still wasn't near it's power potential, that tells me the overall engine 'architecture' is under-stressed. Not only the HP2 Sport, but what about the R1200S based on the hexhead? These two bikes illustrate to me the flexibility of power delivery that still has not been tapped in the GS model lineup. I.E., even with incremental changes, there is more to be had from that engine architecture (see also the 1270cc thread)

2) GS riders / owners don't value peak horsepower as much as subtlety, control and torque delivery.

3) if BMW wants to differentiate themselves at all, why play the same water-cooled game as their competitors? Any entrepreneur will tell you that if you want to win any segment, don't play the same game as your competition.

BMW has a reliable history of continent-crossing success with the venerable air-cooled engine. Re-configuring it, optimizing it would be more sensible that just heading down the water cooled 'me-too' soup line.

4) Based on other BMW engine innovations (VANOS, etc) and developments in engine coatings to reduce and dissipate heat, minimize friction and understand engine stresses better, I could see an air-cooled engine for at least a decade or more. Emissions considerations will be an equivalent concern for any other OEM, whether water cooled or otherwise.

I'd like to see BMW think outside the box and alter their air-cooled engine in a way to optimize what the GS stands for. . . and not follow in the footsteps of other OEMs.
While what you say seems to make sense, That is BMW can keep the air/oil cooled boxer compliant in increasingly difficult emissions environment, why would BMW prototype and leak the newer, more powerful engine in the GS. As you say the more powerful engine performance is more competitive in the RT or RS versions.

Also if they keep both R versions in production, there certainly be a premium cost on the more powerful water cooled version.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:01 PM   #1365
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The problem with the air oil cooling is power density. It is hard to achieve durability at high horsepower levels with air oil cooling. Winter things are a little cold and there is too much clearance. Summer too little. They know that people look at the horsepower and make a decision. Why have 100 horsepower when you can have 130. Sure, 50 is enough, but people are not like that. For those that know better, they will have the classics as long as the emissions cert process is not expensive, and the sell. The rest get the higher power.

Bet the higher power outsells.

Rod
I'd pay more for 30kg less weight, but not 30 more hp.
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