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Old 01-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #1366
vtbob
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
This makes far far more sense to me in light of BMW's engineering prowess.

1) if the HP2 Sport generated 133hp from a camhead engine and still wasn't near it's power potential, that tells me the overall engine 'architecture' is under-stressed. Not only the HP2 Sport, but what about the R1200S based on the hexhead? These two bikes illustrate to me the flexibility of power delivery that still has not been tapped in the GS model lineup. I.E., even with incremental changes, there is more to be had from that engine architecture (see also the 1270cc thread)

2) GS riders / owners don't value peak horsepower as much as subtlety, control and torque delivery.

3) if BMW wants to differentiate themselves at all, why play the same water-cooled game as their competitors? Any entrepreneur will tell you that if you want to win any segment, don't play the same game as your competition.

BMW has a reliable history of continent-crossing success with the venerable air-cooled engine. Re-configuring it, optimizing it would be more sensible that just heading down the water cooled 'me-too' soup line.

4) Based on other BMW engine innovations (VANOS, etc) and developments in engine coatings to reduce and dissipate heat, minimize friction and understand engine stresses better, I could see an air-cooled engine for at least a decade or more. Emissions considerations will be an equivalent concern for any other OEM, whether water cooled or otherwise.

I'd like to see BMW think outside the box and alter their air-cooled engine in a way to optimize what the GS stands for. . . and not follow in the footsteps of other OEMs.
While what you say seems to make sense, That is BMW can keep the air/oil cooled boxer compliant in increasingly difficult emissions environment, why would BMW prototype and leak the newer, more powerful engine in the GS. As you say the more powerful engine performance is more competitive in the RT or RS versions.

Also if they keep both R versions in production, there certainly be a premium cost on the more powerful water cooled version.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:01 PM   #1367
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Originally Posted by ragtoplvr View Post
The problem with the air oil cooling is power density. It is hard to achieve durability at high horsepower levels with air oil cooling. Winter things are a little cold and there is too much clearance. Summer too little. They know that people look at the horsepower and make a decision. Why have 100 horsepower when you can have 130. Sure, 50 is enough, but people are not like that. For those that know better, they will have the classics as long as the emissions cert process is not expensive, and the sell. The rest get the higher power.

Bet the higher power outsells.

Rod
I'd pay more for 30kg less weight, but not 30 more hp.
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Old 01-14-2012, 08:36 PM   #1368
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Originally Posted by longslowdistance View Post
I'd pay more for 30kg less weight, but not 30 more hp.

This.

And less complexity.
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Old 01-14-2012, 09:41 PM   #1369
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Originally Posted by longslowdistance View Post
I'd pay more for 30kg less weight, but not 30 more hp.
+1



BTW., the new w/c boxer costs less to produce. Everything is in one casing, cheaper clutch. The relatively small water collars and the few extra parts are cheap.
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Old 01-14-2012, 10:06 PM   #1370
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The biggest doubters, are usually those most impressed, come demo time.

My crystal ball, shows a home run so far out of the ball park, that lamenting speculations will die a quick death, but until then...

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Old 01-15-2012, 08:04 AM   #1371
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Originally Posted by 996DL View Post
The biggest doubters, are usually those most impressed, come demo time.

My crystal ball, shows a home run so far out of the ball park, that lamenting speculations will die a quick death, but until then...

996DL
You are right on the money.
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:38 AM   #1372
hillbillypolack
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Perhaps an RT is more in tune with the target market then.
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Old 01-15-2012, 11:55 AM   #1373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter-k View Post
+1



BTW., the new w/c boxer costs less to produce. Everything is in one casing, cheaper clutch. The relatively small water collars and the few extra parts are cheap.
Less money (if so) to produce is good for BMW, water cooling is good for the planet, wet clutch and more power is good for me, more money, well, that happens...
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Old 01-15-2012, 06:17 PM   #1374
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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post
Perhaps an RT is more in tune with the target market then.
Dunno.

I have lighter street bikes and much lighter dirt bikes. My gsa is a comfy tool that can blast down a dirt road, do a trail in a pinch, munch tarmac miles and handle the twisties.

Same weight and 30 more horses would suit me fine. As long as the low rpm torque stayed the same.

And please, no cruise.
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Old 01-15-2012, 07:30 PM   #1375
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nor cruelly inserted into "must have" option packages.

Pray, let it be only a stand alone option, so as not to offend even one stalwart defender,
of all that is righteous and manly in "True Adventure Riding."


But it will be heavier, so deal with it...

996DL
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Old 01-15-2012, 08:37 PM   #1376
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I'm sure the bike will be great

the only thing i can see different is the slipper clutch the fake fins bother me it shows they really did love that design look. I would want a boxer liquid cooled unless it comes in RT or a Goldwing. i fell in love with the R1200GS, if your not happy with the one you got already then maybe you will never happy, If you love something some how no matte what comes out you always happy with what you got. I rather have the last of the 90 year old air cooled boxer engine. I'm sure the the liquid cooled will sell very del,l i would be wiling bet that it sells less the R1200GS though. didn't like what i saw of the liquid cooled intakes and header but the RT cowling will hide the rotation of the piston. i have to ride the GT1600 and see how they each ride I have a boxer now so i rather have the smoothness and power GT or RT (if it smooth i don't know if it will still be jumpy because I'm not sure where that comes from the tolerances or the 2 cylinders). I'm not in market for RT till 5 years i just bought my 2012 R1200GS i would be looking till i pay this off. i even liked the 1150cc that the one I fell in love with as BMW I think i fell in love with the GS when i walked into the show room years later. but i always loved the boxer the old and the new thats what really got me looking that boxer engine.

flightestman screwed with this post 01-30-2012 at 09:22 AM
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:00 PM   #1377
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Originally Posted by hillbillypolack View Post

3) if BMW wants to differentiate themselves at all, why play the same water-cooled game as their competitors? Any entrepreneur will tell you that if you want to win any segment, don't play the same game as your competition.
Um...how'd they do on the S1000RR?
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Old 01-15-2012, 09:24 PM   #1378
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[QUOTE=hillbillypolack;17752811]This makes far far more sense to me in light of BMW's engineering prowess.

1) if the HP2 Sport generated 133hp from a camhead engine and still wasn't near it's power potential, that tells me the overall engine 'architecture' is under-stressed. Not only the HP2 Sport, but what about the R1200S based on the hexhead? These two bikes illustrate to me the flexibility of power delivery that still has not been tapped in the GS model lineup. I.E., even with incremental changes, there is more to be had from that engine architecture (see also the 1270cc thread)

To me the better choice would have been making the changes more in line with the HP2. I can already hear water pump failures and coolant leaks....All these "improvements" only make the bike for susceptable to catastrophic failures.The water cooled engine to me shows no gain over what has been proven with the HP2Sport motor. I am always hearing on this forum that we don't need more HP but we need to shed weight. I have my bike fairly tweaked and peaked and have not seen that the new camheads have ANY advantage on me. In fact, from a maintenance standpoint, I can adjust my valves anywhere without having to worry about having a shim IF I buy one of these, it would be a second buy for street unless it just really comes across stronger in person. My 08 has taken a lickin' and keeps on tickin'!!!
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Old 01-15-2012, 10:36 PM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightestman View Post
the fake fins bother me it shows they really did love that design look.


The cylinder supposedly doesn't have a water jacket. Note the pipe across the top of the cylinder to bring coolant to the head which is jacketed. Some of the fins may not be fake.
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Old 01-16-2012, 12:16 AM   #1380
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I was under the impression the HP2 cost mega bucks at the 30k service. Replacement of many exotic parts in the motor and all that. Given that the GS will get more use by it's user base, then cheaper running costs must be one of the reasons BMW have gone L/C.
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