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Old 08-28-2011, 06:18 PM   #91
D.Bachtel
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FHAP huh? Guess you're one of those guys that never left the sandbox.

I may go back to long hours next job, always like the idea of putting in more hours in a week /10 days than most put in a month.

I'll do my best to keep you and James entertained, loving the Zundapp.
No compression readings just yet, either my gauge is on the fritz or my rings are just too slippy!
Gotta drag out the compressor and blow a little air around.


Don in Nipomo
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:41 PM   #92
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Even though it was hitting 95 degrees today (probably +100 in my "garage" , as seen below) I decided to pull the heads back off the Zundapp and see if I could get the pistons broke loose.



Pretty tight working area but at least everything is close....whether I like it or not.




I pulled the top end off and found that a lot of the oil I had introduced a few months ago had dissapated.



I set the transmission into 4th gear then rocked the rear wheel back and forth in an attempt to break the pistons loose. I was able to get the wheel to turn a little but must have been slipping the clutch as the pistons did not budge.




I removed the carbs, exhaust system and other misc. pieces and set aside in a container. I don't really want to go much further with anything else until I get the pistons free'd up.


I bolted back up the cylinder head, without the pushrods installed and then filled the clyinders to the brim with "Marvel Mystery" oil through the spark plug holes, then spun the plugs back in..



Now I'll check the oil level every week or so, I'll try to break things loose after a few more weeks.
My progress is like watching paint dry.....paint which I haven't applied yet.



Hopefully Inmate "D. Bachtel" and his Zundapp EL will keep us entertained......
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Old 08-30-2011, 08:52 PM   #93
D.Bachtel
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Wish my trailer had a top, and a door. My Zundapp continues to live in the converted horsey trailer I brought it home in. I keep it covered and wrapped in multiple layers when I'm not screwing with it. Really need to get the front end on and I've paid for and ordered some parts from James. Guess I bought the contents of the "missing box" the PO failed to keep track of. It's been triple digits down in Tejas for a month now, so I'm not pushing too hard. I just need to find to get a inner bearing race to press on to the lower part of the steering stem and 38 ball bearings - 6.35mm or 1/4 ". Everything else is coming from James. This will be so much better when it rolls.. .

I'll be able to get all over that thing when the oilpan isn't resting on a dolly. Got a good used alloy rim for the rear to match the front.

While waiting for parts I've continued my assessment. Got out the compressor with a simple blow hose and blew in and out of the in and outs plus the sparkplug holes. Valves (lash) were way tight at first but once I adusted them to racing clearance specs things started to pump up. Compression tester back in, kick over by hand. Got to 100 psi and holding on each side. That's all I needed to see. If I can get that without even cleaning things up a bit imagine what I'll achieve after I've serviced the head and bores. Happy again.

Keep after your penetration efforts and check out your transmission / kickstarter. See if you can find the gears.
I'll be pulling the cylinders soon, can't wait to see 5 rings in a row. What did they think this was? An aeroplane engine?

Don in Nipomo
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:35 PM   #94
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D.Bachtel
Any progress in your Zundapp arena?
My "green elephant" is still dormant with the cylinders still a'soak'in....the five rings just don't want to let go of the cylinder walls!
I drug home a homeless old Rat Beemer last weekend to keep me occupied while things are soak'in.
Just what I needed...another dead machine.
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bmwhacker screwed with this post 09-12-2011 at 10:43 PM
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:03 PM   #95
D.Bachtel
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Progress, yes. Got the front end on, fitted up an older single saddle (1970s Japanese Bates knock off).
Making my cables up here at work and hoping to get the center stand ratchet installed one of these evenings so I can roll it into the garage and drop the oilpan. Need to find a large mirror to place on the floor for big end inspection.

Been whooped by a DaeWoo, a Volvo and a Geo Metro Convertible for 2 weeks, not what I want to work on just some much needed fleet maintenance.... a little too late.

Your latest acquisition (R60/6 BMW) looks good but I'd like to see the BSA single you stumbled upon!

I'll get some photos transferred from Photobucket soon.

Don in Nipomo
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Old 09-13-2011, 07:34 PM   #96
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As promised....


All I had to do is put all this stuff in the frame... plus 38 1/4" (6.35mm) chrome ball bearings.






to come up with a roller....






CR 250 MX low rise heavy wall bars, all controls - Magura !





I like the seat, came with a bunch of Bates I bought years ago..





More rust removal needed before I polish the dull heavy chrome and shoot it with clear.





Kick ass alloy body shocks....





Nice trail on this bike, it truly is a tug.



This build will probably end up in Hacks.
Oldschool is relative but to me it's 6 volts, drumbrakes and kickstart. Pre 1970.
Besides, this boxer will be mated to an ACAP. Gunna be bitchin.


Don in Nipomo

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Old 09-14-2011, 12:10 PM   #97
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I just love the rear of that frame!
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Old 09-18-2011, 06:28 PM   #98
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Since today is my only day off I decided to make another attempt to turn the Zundapp engine again. I removed the cylinder heads and drained the Marvel Oil which has been sitting for a couple of weeks.
I raised the rear wheel off the ground, shifted the transmission into high gear and attempted to turn the engine but to no avail. She is still stuck tight. I made a few pretty brutal attempts at the rear wheel and tapped the piston head with a hardwood dowel hoping to break something loose, but nada.
Wondering if a rod was fouled in the engine I decided to inspect a little deeper.




I decided to drain the crankcase and pull the oil pan to see if any debris was present.
I had visions equivelant to a surgeon opening a terminal cancer patient and immediately closing them back as nothing can be done for them.
I removed the drain plug and a combination of Marvel Oil and ancient motor oil gushed forth.
Removing the pan took some time. There are 14 bolts and some felt a little tight so took my time working them out. All came out OK and threads looked good. The pan lowered itself as the long winded bolts came down. The pan probably weighs 5 lbs. all by itself. The pan had about 1/2 inch of coagulated "spooge" in the bottom which, I guess were the elemental compounds of the broken down oil.



I have seen some nasty oil in my years but never have seen crap like was sitting in the bottom of the oil pan. Not a liquid and not a solid....kind of a "plasma grunge". I should have photographed it before scooping it out but was so covered in the crap I couldn't touch a camera. A couple drops below:



Rumaging through the goo I didn't find anything resembling metal which is good. The oil filter/pickup was coated in the crud so cleaned it somewhat. I doubt if it can ever be used again and will need to be replaced.





I stuck my camera under the open engine a took a couple photos....looks like this rod is where it is supposed to be....no way of knowing if it is welded to the crankshaft.



I cleaned up all the removed parts, carefully cleaned each oil pan bolt and plate which goes with each one, then reinstalled the filter and oil pan. Replaced the cylinder heads and filled each cylinder with Marvel Oil.
So no real progress today in the "free the pistons" department. At least I was able to do an in depth study in the elemental compounds contained in 50 year old motor oil.
I'll continue the soaking process and hope for the best.
From what I saw today, I'm pretty sure the engine will need a complete tear down to inspect everything before it could ever run. If I could only get the damned pistons to move I'd clear the road block in tearing the engine down.

I also possess 3 BMW motorcycles and each one needs attention in some way or another. I picked up a R60/5 last weekend so maybe the BMW motor could get shoe horned into the Zundapp frame (?) if the Zundapp engine is toasted.
I figured that the cost of a total Zundapp rebuild could be a financial catastrophe but I already have a complete gasket set and NOS rings are less than a $100.00.
If I was lucky, all I'd need is a valve grind and a cylinder hone job. I will definately want to remove the rods to check the bearings, which are a roller / cage variety. Those roller bearings are a weak point in the motor. These engines also use a fiber material cam gear but from what I've read, they are pretty tough. Hopefully mine is in one piece.
So again the pistons.....soak....soak.....soak.....
If anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears.
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Old 09-18-2011, 09:59 PM   #99
tenderfoot
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If anyone has any better ideas, I'm all ears.
I don't know if it's a better idea, maybe an alternative.

First off, I'm no engine rebuilder my experience is of the more brutal steelmill maintenance kind.

So, I would start considering jacking the bloody thing off using one of those small Enerpac type hydraulic jacks.

The pistons don't appear to be at TDC so if you loosen the cylinder bolts on both sides, the crank should rotate enough to establish a gap between the crank case and the bottom of the cylinder.

If the gap is large enough for two pieces of stout flatbar to be inserted one above the other below the conrod, I woul use these a bases to attach long enough pieces of threaded bar sticking out past the cylinder.
So now you have four long bolts (one on each end of the flatbars) sticking out past the cylinder. Fabricate some kind of base connecting the four studs and use this to anchor the jack.
Ideally you should use a pipe which just fits inside the cylinder to apply the force evenly on the circumference of the piston as a concentrated point loading may cause damage.
edit: Once you've established a decent force onto the piston insert a steelrod onto the back of the pipe and give it a sharp whack with a hammer. Sometimes you just need that initial micron of movement for the seize to break free.
Don't be tempted to use the headbolts as jack base attachment points, it would be a catastrophe if you were to strip them.

Better advice may be to just take your problem to the Garage section, those guys know what they talk about.

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Old 09-18-2011, 10:25 PM   #100
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I don't know if it's a better idea, maybe an alternative.

First off, I'm no engine rebuilder my experience is of the more brutal steelmill maintenance kind.

So, I would start considering jacking the bloody thing off using one of those small Enerpac type hydraulic jacks.

The pistons don't appear to be at TDC so if you loosen the cylinder bolts on both sides, the crank should rotate enough to establish a gap between the crank case and the bottom of the cylinder.

If the gap is large enough for two pieces of stout flatbar to be inserted one above the other below the conrod, I woul use these a bases to attach long enough pieces of threaded bar sticking out past the cylinder.
So now you have four long bolts (one on each end of the flatbars) sticking out past the cylinder. Fabricate some kind of base connecting the four studs and use this to anchor the jack.
Ideally you should use a pipe which just fits inside the cylinder to apply the force evenly on the circumference of the piston as a concentrated point loading may cause damage.
Don't be tempted to use the headbolts as it would be a catastrophe if you were to strip them.

Better advice may be to just take your problem to the Garage section, those guys know what they talk about.

Thanks for the input.
Today I did loosen the cylinder base nuts a half inch or so with the hope that the pistons were on an outward stroke, which would have moved the jugs outward. Unfortunately I didn't gain anything when I rocked the rear wheel (hoping to move something).
That is why I am afraid I might have a rod seized to the crankshaft, but.... The previous owner told me that the engine did turn when he acquired the bike. The bike then sat for 20 years in his garage. After sitting for 20 years I hope it doesn't take 20 years to "thaw" it out. The cylinders have soaked with Marvel oil on and off now for 5 months or so. The pistons each have 5 rings so it appears that they don't want to let go of the cylinder walls. More patience needed I guess.
I'm a little concerned about violently rocking the rear wheel back and forth as I don't want to damage anything in the transmission or final drive. I've used this technique before with success on a rusty conventional 3 ring pistoned BMW engine.
Maybe heating the cylinders might be another method?
If I could get the cylinder to expand without the piston expanding?
I wonder if a heat gun would be enough to expand things?
A torch might be too much?

????? ????? ????? ??
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Old 09-18-2011, 11:20 PM   #101
D.Bachtel
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Don't give up just yet, a little heat on the pistons and cylinders wouldn't hurt, but stick with a heat gun.
I'm having my best luck with PB Blaster and Liquid Wrench even a little carb cleaner.
Mix them all together and they seem to generate heat.
Seems to be a little hotter and thinner that your normal oil. Must be carcinogenic. Sounds like we need more of a solvent than a lube.

Got my cylinders off today, both bores look doable. Pistons had sticky rings (there are just 4 not 5?) but the LW mix freed them up.
Grudgeon pins are a bit of a problem now. Even with a heat gun I can only slide them back and forth to the outside of the circlip groove on either side.
3 out of 4 clips were missing one eye and it appears someone deformed the pistons while installing them without the proper tool.
I've got some dimensions so I can begin making a removal tool at work tomorrow.

If all goes well I should have the barrels blasted, painted, crosshatched and sized up by the end of the week.
Then on to the heads. Planning on doing a hand lap, polishing the pistons and chambers, checking springs, guides and rockers.
Lots of Liquid Wrench and PB Blaster to remove all remnants of the decades old putrid petrochemical varnish and sludge.


Don in Nipomo
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Old 09-19-2011, 08:55 AM   #102
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Don't give up just yet, a little heat on the pistons and cylinders wouldn't hurt, but stick with a heat gun.
I'm having my best luck with PB Blaster and Liquid Wrench even a little carb cleaner.
Mix them all together and they seem to generate heat.
Seems to be a little hotter and thinner that your normal oil. Must be carcinogenic. Sounds like we need more of a solvent than a lube.

Got my cylinders off today, both bores look doable. Pistons had sticky rings (there are just 4 not 5?) but the LW mix freed them up.
Grudgeon pins are a bit of a problem now. Even with a heat gun I can only slide them back and forth to the outside of the circlip groove on either side.
3 out of 4 clips were missing one eye and it appears someone deformed the pistons while installing them without the proper tool.
I've got some dimensions so I can begin making a removal tool at work tomorrow.

If all goes well I should have the barrels blasted, painted, crosshatched and sized up by the end of the week.
Then on to the heads. Planning on doing a hand lap, polishing the pistons and chambers, checking springs, guides and rockers.
Lots of Liquid Wrench and PB Blaster to remove all remnants of the decades old putrid petrochemical varnish and sludge.


Don in Nipomo
If my next bout with the pistons is unsuccessful I will go to a more solvent based oil.
The carcinogenic witches brew you talked about might be the key....as long as I don't blow myself up.
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:02 AM   #103
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Thanks for the input.
Today I did loosen the cylinder base nuts a half inch or so with the hope that the pistons were on an outward stroke, which would have moved the jugs outward. Unfortunately I didn't gain anything when I rocked the rear wheel (hoping to move something).
?
I realised on my way to work this morning that if the the big ends share the same journal the one would be on it's way in while the other is on it's way out, so the inward bound piston will draw the cylinder onto the crank case effectively jamming the whole lot in any case.

Heating with a heat gun is an option, but I would imagine that the rings stuck to the cylinder wall would simply follow it out without letting go. No harm in trying. Heat gun is the way to go.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:19 PM   #104
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I checked, they do run seperate big ends at 180 degrees so theoretically one should be able to pop loosened cylinders.

Came across some excellent sites, you maybe know them in any case.

http://www.zundappfool.com/

http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/index.html

Good luck and keep us updated.

Oh yes. Can you get to the big end bearing caps from underneath.? If you remove the caps you could then remove the cylinder with the piston and conrod as a unit to be pressed apart. At least you could let the cylinder stand on end for the penetrating oil to do its job.
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Old 09-21-2011, 07:43 PM   #105
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been watching your thread with interest.

Maybe i missed it, but why can't you simply unbolt the cylinders and use some careful "wood-cushioned" hits with a mallet to either pull the cylinders from the pistons or get the crank to move or both?

I admire your patience. I couldn't wait this long.

+1 on the heatgun advice unless you're very experienced with a propane torch. leave the pistons, focus on the cylinders.

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