ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Layin' down tracks
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 06-16-2012, 08:19 AM   #16
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Keyirtbike:scale

All, give comment on this !!!

"[TASF]Overkill" used dirtbike:scale

Think others (no motorcyclist) must understand what it means too.
So it is dirtbike:scale or is it: DS:scale or ADV:scale or Dualsport:scale or Allroad:scale?

Dirtbike:scale
But do you think this suits all adventure bikes too? Like GS,Vstrom categorie and KLR DR XT categorie.
Or is dirtbike not the proper name for the total group?

Also give your comment on the scale [TASF]overkill proposed.

================================================== ==

My cents.

Conditons of trail depends a lot on the weather conditions and the season.
Uphill and downhill are more effected by them.
In this conditions dirtbike: scale=2 is for most adventureriders to heavy.
Left over: scale 0 and 1.
But how many riders are fitted in one this scales. And how many in 2-6
Think, the most riders are scale 0 and 1 less in 2 till 6, so must 2 and 3 be degraded? To get more scales for a larger amount of people. Because dirtbike is also adventure riders.

But there is also tracktype=grade (1-5)
How to match that with dirtbike:scale?
Seems that tracktype=grade5 only fits dirtbike:scale=0-1

And there is surface and smoothness.

In other countries a single trace is mostly tagged as a highway=path were motorcycles is allowed.
So much hikers tag path although we can drive over it.
In a lot of countries there must be a sign to forbid it otherwise you can drive over that.

Myway screwed with this post 06-16-2012 at 09:42 AM
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 08:49 AM   #17
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
But first must it be a proposal dirtbike page in the osm wiki?
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 09:05 AM   #18
wbbnm
Beastly Adventurer
 
wbbnm's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: Abq NM
Oddometer: 1,978
Here is a web site that rates trails for jeeps.

http://www.treknow.com/utah/backroad...ntral_utah.htm

This is for just one area of Utah, but at the bottom you can see that they have specific measurables for the different ratings.

BTW I saw this thread and decided to check out the OSM maps. I was disappointed to see that the maps were very inaccurate in places that I ride and know well in New Mexico. Don't know if this is pervasive.

So I will be sticking with my Garmin Topo, City Navigator, and Google Earth trip planning methods.
wbbnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 09:47 AM   #19
ebel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Ireland, EU
Oddometer: 55
I'm a big OSM contibutor, and budding adventure biker, so I'm very happy to see more people add stuff. I'll try to answer what I can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Myway View Post
But first must it be a proposal dirtbike page in the osm wiki?
Nope, you can just add & map & tag things. The wiki and "proposed features" is only to reach out to other mappers to agree on the best way to do things. We can have this discussion here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myway View Post
In a program like JOSM we can import our .gpx file, then draw the line and give the tag. (Sign in, in OSM)
You can view GPX files in Potlatch, the web based editor (it's what you get when you click 'edit' on the webpage)

One thing us advriders can do is add roads to OSM if they're not there. Today I added this road ( http://www.openstreetmap.org/?way=167594336 ) that I went on while on a short ride. We can also add accomodation, petrol stations, hotels etc. This makes the map better for everyone.

We can also details about roads/tracks, like "surface=fine_gravel" or "paved=yes". It's usually better to add objective, scientific details like "surface=gravel", or "width=1.2m" than subjective things like "surface=bad".

"motorcycle=yes" or "motorcycle=no", is based on the law. Can you legally ride a bike on this road? (Sometimes a road might be open to bikes, buses and taxis, but not cars or horses).
ebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 09:51 AM   #20
ebel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Ireland, EU
Oddometer: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post
BTW I saw this thread and decided to check out the OSM maps. I was disappointed to see that the maps were very inaccurate in places that I ride and know well in New Mexico. Don't know if this is pervasive.
Depends. Most big professionally made maps (e.g. Google Maps) are pretty consistant across a country, whereas OSM can vary. One part of a country (or city) might be very well mapped, another part might not be. Sometimes OSM is waaay better than Google Maps (Have a look at Sarajevo OSM vs. Google Maps http://tools.geofabrik.de/mc/?mt0=ma...=43.86&zoom=14 ).

Remember you can add your town to the map!
ebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 10:09 AM   #21
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post
BTW I saw this thread and decided to check out the OSM maps. I was disappointed to see that the maps were very inaccurate in places that I ride and know well in New Mexico. Don't know if this is pervasive.
Yes it is at most places not totaly accurate.
We make the map together, missing roads must be drawn in.


Garmin Topo maps do not give you the access rights for motorcycle.
There are lots of garmin topo unpaved roads not accessible for use.
So planning is not always easy.
Also the topo maps are several years old.
Even citynavigator (Navtaq) although there is every year updates is not accurate in country side. (Access rules)
By normal roads there in some parts more than 4 years behind.

There is the advantage. Check with OSM data
And you can quickly change the OSM data by yourself.
Over the years it wil be better.
It's community work.

There not much ADV drivers changing the map.
The more the better the map.

Therefore this topic tried to united them.

We are just beginning!!!!
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 11:12 AM   #22
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by ebel View Post
Remember you can add your town to the map!
What do you think about the layout of the allroadmap use firefox/chrome.
zoom in and see what is controlled and closed.
Also adventure (allroad) routing is different like streetrouting, taking for unpaved roads.
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2012, 11:50 PM   #23
FixerDave
KLR650 - XR200R
 
FixerDave's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Oddometer: 373
OSM convert here

I'm in the process of building my own OSM layers (ultimately to use in Orux on an Android tablet) and have settled on using highway=track/path. To me, tracks are 2-track on up, paths are single-track. I've also made custom barrier designations and incorporated them into JOSM and Maperitive. Further, I've just started using one-way designations for areas that I can only go one way on. The standard I arrived at is for me and tracks I'm not uploading for various reasons (made from Google Earth traces, etc.) but I'm entirely willing to conform to any reasonable common standard with the shared stuff.

That said, having contemplated a rating system, here's a sticking-point I ran across. Unlike most roads, or even hiking paths, dirtbike tracks and paths can change rapidly. Routes can degenerate, disappear or simply become impassible, literally overnight. One windstorm and blow-downs render a trail useless, often for a long time. Active logging country (where I ride) is even worse. An entire area can go from single-track heaven to, basically, gone at the whim of a company plan. Happens a lot, actually. One day it's there, the next weekend it's a pile of unridable slash. It goes the other way too. Some old and entirely impassible trail can get rehabilitated for an event. All it takes is one day and a crew of dedicated trail-builders. I've done that too, even ridden with a chainsaw strapped to the rack. A hiker can clamber over fallen trees; mud simply makes a nice hike dirty. But, the same thinks can render a trail useless to bikers, especially the Adv-types on bigger machines.

A route on any difficulty scale can go from easy to near impossible, and back, in a single riding season. It's not just the weather. What I recommend is any difficulty rating system also include a tag that identifies the last survey date. Otherwise, it's not going to be all that useful. Granted, there are some trail areas that are actively maintained and this variably won't be such a big deal, but many areas aren't.

David...
FixerDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 12:26 AM   #24
FixerDave
KLR650 - XR200R
 
FixerDave's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Oddometer: 373
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbbnm View Post
...BTW I saw this thread and decided to check out the OSM maps. I was disappointed to see that the maps were very inaccurate in places that I ride and know well in New Mexico. Don't know if this is pervasive.

So I will be sticking with my Garmin Topo, City Navigator, and Google Earth trip planning methods.
I've watched OSM grow over the years and it seems rather obvious that it will be the definitive standard quite soon. As well, the tools to create, manage, and generate output from the data are already great, and getting better by the day. I've converted from building custom Garmin format maps (working in MP and IMG formats) to OSM (JOSM, Maperitive, MOBAC, and Orux).

That said, I too was disappointed to find that the logging roads in my area were not included in the OSM data. In Canada, the government released the CanVec (Canadian Vector) data to the public a long time ago. It was converted to Garmin format in the Ibycus project (free Garmin format topo maps of Canada) and I know that included these logging roads. Further, OSM has access to CanVec data. Yet, when I downloaded the available CanVec dataset, it too did not include these logging roads. After a little research, I discovered that even the later versions of Ibycus did not include them. It seems that our government mapping teams decided to remove this data, probably because they thought it too old and unreliable. This is understandable from a mapping point of view but very annoying for dirtbikers like myself. After all, an old abandoned logging road can often make the best place to ride. This old data is very useful to me. Thus, I converted the old Ibycus data in the areas I ride to an OSM layer and have started cleaning that up. Thus, I have all the logging roads in my area, though with questionable accuracy at this point. The data is, after all, circa 2007.

I still don't know the legality of using this particular data in OSM proper. It has been, after all, converted to IMG and back again via cGPSmapper, which adds licensing restrictions. Also, the OSM agreement to use CanVec data may not retroactively cover this stuff. Also, I'm not sure adding this data into OSM proper is an entirely good thing to do. After all, most people don't care about old abandoned logging roads and getting routed down them might be an issue. Not everyone is an gnarly AdvRider

The point of all this rambling is this: The data for your area probably exists. The tools to work with that data exist. While said data may not be useable in the official OSM data, either because of copyright or reliability issues, you can, with a little effort, use it for your very own maps. Once you start creating your own maps, the possibilities are amazing.

Either that, or you can just use your GPS, go for a ride, and then make/fix the OSM data - which is the point of OSM. Eventually, enough people will do this and everywhere will be mapped. It's only a matter of time. It will take less time if you go out and do your bit. Admittedly, though, it doesn't help with planning a ride in a new area today, so I do agree with your frustration.

David...
FixerDave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 04:57 AM   #25
abhibeckert
Beastly Adventurer
 
abhibeckert's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2010
Location: Cairns, Australia
Oddometer: 1,432
I've been tagging stuff for years, and follow these simple rules - taken from australia's section of the wiki (we have a more off road stuff than most of the world, so have put a lot of thought into it).

For hardcore single track - the kind of stuff where you will be skull dragging your bike over chest high fallen trees - I use set the "highway" tag to "path", which is officially described as:

Quote:
highway=path
A route open to the public which is not intended for motor vehicles, unless so tagged separately. This includes snowmobile trails, ski trails, hiking trails, horse trails, bike trails and paths, mountain bike trails as well as combinations of the above and other modes of transportation.
For easier single track (eg: a KLR can get down it) and firetrails I use the "track" tag:

Quote:
highway=track
Roads for agricultural use, gravel roads in the forest etc.; usually unpaved/unsealed but may occasionally apply to paved tracks as well.
And finally, if an experienced 4x4 driver would be comfortable driving it in 2wd car, then I tag it as "highway=unclassified" and "surface=unpaved":

Quote:
highway=unclassified
Physically, the roads which should be tagged in OSM as highway=unclassified can vary greatly between countries, and even between areas in the same country. However, within the same local area, physical comparisons can be made to decide the level of importance: use your local knowledge and judgement! One generality, perhaps, is that "unclassified" roads are often unpaved in larger, poorer or more remote/rural areas, and are typically paved in denser, richer or more central/urban areas.
If it's a big wide gravel road that I'd comfortably travel down at 160km/h or more if it wasn't for all the wildlife (who needs speed cameras when you've got kangaroos or deer jumping out of the bushes?) then I tag it as a major highway. We've got a lot of these in central australia.

I don't see any point getting more detailed than that. If the road is anything close to your comfort level you should not be trusting the map anyway, and better seek local advice or a ride report, or at least be prepared to turn around and head home.

Those three tags are rendered nicely in most mapping apps. Mine shows a red dotted line for "path", a brown dotted line for "track" and a solid grey line for "unclassified".

Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
I still don't know the legality of using this particular data in OSM proper. It has been, after all, converted to IMG and back again via cGPSmapper, which adds licensing restrictions. Also, the OSM agreement to use CanVec data may not retroactively cover this stuff.
I can answer that for you: it's completely illegal under civil law in pretty much every country in the world, and also covered by criminal law in some countries (eg: the USA). And it's also illegal under contract law (the contract you agree to before contributing to openstreetmap). And there are ongoing international negotiations to make these laws tougher and better enforced all around the world.

If you didn't create the map yourself, you can't add it to open street map. Simple as that. The only exception is if the company that owns the map data gets you to add it on their behalf.
__________________
We're building a community to help noobs choose the right oil: Stack Exchange's Proposed Motorcycle Community

abhibeckert screwed with this post 06-17-2012 at 05:09 AM
abhibeckert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 05:52 AM   #26
ebel
Adventurer
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Location: Ireland, EU
Oddometer: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
Unlike most roads, or even hiking paths, dirtbike tracks and paths can change rapidly. Routes can degenerate, disappear or simply become impassible, literally overnight. One windstorm and blow-downs render a trail useless, often for a long time.
I hadn't thought of that. Maybe you could add some tags to say "this road might disappear if there's a lot of rain" ? ("quality_degrade_after_rain=yes" or something). That's an accurate and true statement about the road/track. Someone could then hook weather data into a map display and show highlight or not show roads/tracks in an area if there has just been a bit of rain. Don't be afraid of putting that sort of extra-information in!

I'm not sure what you can do about a company changing plans. Firstly, if the road/track is gone, you should delete it from the map. OSM updates immediately. You could also add a tag that "This road might dissappear" (maybe "temporary=yes" ?? )

Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
I still don't know the legality of using this particular data in OSM proper. It has been, after all, converted to IMG and back again via cGPSmapper, which adds licensing restrictions. Also, the OSM agreement to use CanVec data may not retroactively cover this stuff.
I'm not sure. In general, unless a company/organisation, in writing/on the record, says that it's OK to put in OSM, you legally cannot do it. Perhaps you should ask the local Canadian OpenStreetMap community? (There might be an IRC channel, mailing list, web forum etc) They might know more of the specifics and legalities of that particular data source. Even just message people on the OSM website! Or email them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
I'm not sure adding this data into OSM proper is an entirely good thing to do. After all, most people don't care about old abandoned logging roads and getting routed down them might be an issue. Not everyone is an gnarly AdvRider
Nope, put it in the map! OSM should have everything! Just be sure to tag the track accurately. Firstly if it has legal designations you can put the correct highway=primary/secondary/etc., you can also put extra tags, like "surface", or "width" or "lanes". If you pretend that this is a nice smooth motorway then routing software might send them down, but if you accurately say that it's a track, with gravel surface and only 1 metre wide, then the problem is with the routing software! Add it to the map!
ebel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 07:58 AM   #27
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
ADVriding is also turn back, when you think you can not handle the situation.
That's also a fun part. State of mind. And your no..............
It's al about risk managment.

These roads were this can occur, you can make a hazard tag.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenHazardMap

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard_type
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/K..._return_period
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard_intensity
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:hazard_prone, not a lot used yet.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/P...Hazard_warning
==========================================
quote:
Dangers on paths and tracks




These dangers are usually not marked at all. Examples I have encountered and would like to warn others about include:
  • Holes or overgrown ditches in the middle of the track
  • very narrow paths with electrical fences on one or both sides
  • wire and barbed wire on the ground on or next to the path
  • broken barbed wire fences leaning into the path
The tag is intended for permanent or long-time hazards. Many of the above dangers obviously have been resting in the woods for years. Short-Time obstacles (e.g. fallen trees) that are likely to be cleared soon should not be mapped.
It should be used to mark unexpected hazards on an otherwise harmless track. You should not map every steep drop on a way that is already tagged as an alpine hiking trail.
=======================

I think there some hazard tags that must be developed.
Every kind of riding/transportation has it's own problem/risk.
So places where occur landslides every time, a hazard tag is appropiate.
But you also can think placing a tag on a node or a way.

Ditch in the road, big rock, stepoff, slippery (ford, wooden bridge) etc.

This all make the perfect ADV map.

We must make a list of all dangers that can occur.
And make a appropiate tag list.


hazard=cattle_crossing
hazard=wildlife_crossing




Then you can also choose key barrier
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Barriers

barrier=tree hazard=yes with acess=? how you can take the obstacle.

Barrier=chain, but you may and can go around, needs a hazard tag, Hope you see him in time.

I made several time a highway=track (2 trail) but on the node a barrier=fence closed for 2 trail transportation(4x4), around the fence i draw a short path (singletrail) so open to adv riding. No other signs on that place.
So routing programs can send ADV riders over path.



Perhaps make in google docs a excel page were we all can change and give comments.
map "Friends of ADV riding".
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 01:07 PM   #28
[TASF]Overkill
VRSATL
 
[TASF]Overkill's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Oddometer: 174
Laugh

Damn that was a lot of discourse after missing a few days!

My thoughts:

1. The dirtbike:scale tag I'm proposing describes the trail itself, not the difficulty as it relates to a dirt bike vs. a heavy ADV bike. As stated in the wiki entry, I think the scale should be defined such that someone who doesn't even ride can determine the appropriate scale for a trail. Currently it's defined with somewhat subjective terms, like "lots of ruts", "deep ruts", "steep", etc. I know most 1200GS riders probably have a much differnet idea of what deep ruts on a steep hill are. I would like to fix that in the definitions of the scale, because right now it's not ideal. However, I think it is imperative that the scale be specifically about describing the trail, not attempting to classify what type of rider or bike should be on it. The tag I based it on, scale:mtb, is for mountain bikes. There are quite a few varieties of mountain bike and rider too. That's why the scale is based more on description of the types of obstacles challenging to a MTB. I forsee an atv:scale tag or something may come into play some day too, specifically grading a trail based on the types of things that ATV riders have to look out for. If you get into too many tags though, trying to get too precise for every single case, you will have too many tags and very few roads that are fully covered with all the tags you're looking for.

2: Variability of trails... Definitely, weather can quickly change a trail. We all know this. I simply try to update the rating for trails with the most up to date ride report. No commercial map that I've seen tries to rate trail conditions, and the volatility of the data is the reason for that. I don't want the dirtbike:scale tag to be a requirement to find places to ride, but I want it to be an option.

3: Temporary trails. This is handled in other places on OSM. I would look for how they handle this on regular roads. I for one would not delete the track, but simply tag it as recommended for closed roads. If it's a corporate owned road, tagging it with the proper access flag should be appropriate. Forget which tag it is that says public traffic is currently allowed but can be revoked at any time.

4: Hazards. I like the idea of points representing hazards. Would like to see more discussion on this. Generally, I like to accomplish a goal with as few new tags as possible though.

5. Barriers to entry. I think these can simply be covered by tagging the barrier along the path (I do a lot of gates in my area), and tagging the road on the other side appropriately to reflect the new restricted means of travel.

6. Legality of data. I generally only use GPS tracks I've tracked myself or GPS tracks others have provided. Some times I'll use the satellite imagery to trace spots I'm not sure about, but if you can't ride it or walk it in order to map it, what's the point of mapping it beyond what you can see from the road/trail?

7. Track/trail/path. I believe OSM community generally agrees that path is only for non motorized transportation. If you want to designate something as single track, currently you can use the tags for max vehicle width restriction. Remember it's never ok to modify your tags to get a given renderer to render the trail correctly. In OSM the data integrity is far more important than how it renders.

8. Incompleteness of OSM. If the trail maps in your area suck, great! Get out there and map 'em! It's a good excuse to go see every corner of every area you can find to ride! I've found some great stuff trying to plot out my local MVUM.
[TASF]Overkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 01:48 PM   #29
Myway OP
Beastly Adventurer
 
Myway's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Knobby country
Oddometer: 2,547
Trail
This word is common in your place.

What is that?
Discribe it. Then it narrows.

A dirtbike:scale only for trails. ?
Here we have more farmer roads.

OSM is worldwide we use all the same tags, But I, for example have a another language and access is different regulated then in other parts of the world.

Tags must fit each country.

A path, such as walkers in my area tag (single), i can use them if there are no signs.(with motorcycle)
So saying no motorized vehicle allowed. Here you see that wiki goes wrong. Because the writer thinks not worldwide. Or walkers have approved it, not thinking on small others categories like ADV.

So walkers sets the path (single), i can not change that in track, because then we have a big disagreement.
I be happy that i can change it to path, because often they set it as footway or cycleway.
I tagged them also motorcycle=yes, but some deleted that, because they do not want you there. Although it is correct to be there. So 1:100 walkers.

You have to think about the opinion of other categories.

Myway screwed with this post 06-17-2012 at 03:54 PM
Myway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #30
[TASF]Overkill
VRSATL
 
[TASF]Overkill's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Oddometer: 174
Sorry, when I say trail, that's not an OSM term. I call them trails, but I tag them as tracks.

It is important that we adhere to the conventions set forth within OSM.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

Track: "Rough roads, often with unpaved/unsealed surfaces and normally used for agricultural or forestry uses etc. Use tracktype=* for tagging to describe the surface."

Path: "A non-specific or shared-use path. Probably better to use highway=footway for paths mainly for walkers, highway=cycleway for one also usable by cyclists, highway=bridleway for ones available to horses as well as walkers and highway=track for ones which is passable by agriculture or similar vehicles."

Obviously there is a potential for some overlap and you should use your judgment. In the U.S.A., Forestry Roads are pretty definitively "tracks". Given that an ATV trail or single track trail is also primarily for use with motor vehicles, I think it receives the designation of road, and thus track, as well. Path, to me, and of course this is possibly a regional thing, indicates a non motorized means of transportation. That seems to be the concensus on OSM as well.

This particular part of discussion should be brought up to OSM at large. Not just the ADVRiders.
[TASF]Overkill is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014