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Old 06-24-2012, 04:02 PM   #61
[TASF]Overkill
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Track vs. Path
I think abhibeckert sums it up best in distinguishing track from path. There will obviously be some grey area in some cases, but this clears up most of the cases I've seen in real life.
Track: Not paved, narrow enough to make passing difficult or impossible for cars.
Path: Not paved and so narrow that even two motorcycles would have trouble passing each other.

One-way difficulties
This perhaps should be considered as part of the "hazard" tag that has received some talk. In either case, I would not recommend splitting the way into two separate ways to tag separately. It should be possible to tag a node on a way without much issue, but I'm not sure I've heard a really great way to do that.

[TASF]Overkill screwed with this post 06-24-2012 at 04:07 PM
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:26 PM   #62
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Road jurisdiction

Specifically relevant in the U.S... Many of the Forest Service roads within a given National Forest are obviously owned and maintained by the national forest service... but the remaining public roads are still just standard public roads. How does the OSM community generally tag the jurisdiction that a given road is under? I can't find any examples of how it SHOULD be done.

There's some interesting examples for my questions here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37...om=15&layers=M

The "FR" roads, the dotted lines... Those are Forestry Roads and are within the jurisdiction of the George Washington National Forest, which is of course the big green mess that the whole screen is covered by.

The Blue Ridge Parkway, which sweeps up from the bottom center, is actually within the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.

And yet VA 130 is a local or state maintained road, as are all/most of the other named roads in that view.

If I am rendering a map of specifically roads belonging to the Forest Service, and I want to code the NPS and state/local roads for reference... Is there a tag or a relation that is generally used for that?
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:09 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [TASF]Overkill View Post

There's some interesting examples for my questions here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37...om=15&layers=M
There some roads with highway=residential, not correct in the woods.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

better is than unclassified
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:29 PM   #64
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Yes Myway, most of the data when OSM imported it from forestry data came through as residential. I didn't do it! That's one of the things I'm working on.
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Old 06-24-2012, 11:03 PM   #65
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Old CanVec data

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
I haven't read this "CanVec" agreement, but it probably doesn't apply to you. Don't add the data to OSM until after you've read it.
...
Don't worry, I have no intention of mass-uploading anything to OSM, ever. Not my thing. I have, however, imported all useful data into my personal maps, and they are AWESOME! I just did a ride today, best ride in years, where I found a promising gated road with no signs and a nice path around. I followed it for a while until it dove into badly overgrown single-track, but... there was this old CanVec logging road, just 200m farther, so I pushed on. Ended up in a whole new-to-me riding area. Sure, the "road" was basically rocky single-track in places so overgrown I could barely see the trail but it took me where I wanted to go. It linked up with some fantastic powerline access roads, nobody but me on them...

FAST

Later on, I hit on some rough single-track out that I never would have attempted except for, again, a CanVec track on the map in the right place. Yeah, old data, lousy for general mapping, but incredibly useful for dualsport. Best, I now have a GPS track of the ride. I'm in the process of running it through JOSM now. Still haven't decided if I'm going to upload those ways to OSM though... that powerline was

Honestly, I probably will upload them... the ways in and our are seriously difficult and that should limit the traffic.

As for mass-data, I may find the time to script a routine that converts particular road types from the old Ibycus data to OSM and then just post the files for others to personally use. I just did the set I'm running manually, but scripting it shouldn't be too hard. However, after having ridden some today, I can't honestly say this old data belongs in OSM proper. I can understand why they pulled it out of the new CanVec data. Not accurate, many abandoned years ago and nearly unusable by anything except the local wildlife, like me.

David...

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Old 06-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [TASF]Overkill View Post
...
One-way difficulties
This perhaps should be considered as part of the "hazard" tag that has received some talk. In either case, I would not recommend splitting the way into two separate ways to tag separately. It should be possible to tag a node on a way without much issue, but I'm not sure I've heard a really great way to do that.
I just did a bit of reading and it seems that nodes are not directional like ways. Thus, if only using nodes, while it would be possible to indicate difficulty on a rendered map, there would be no way of indicating direction if said difficulty was, in fact, directional. Even entrance/exit only gates/entrances are indicated by having a very short way marked "one-way".

Like I've said before. My maps show this now and they will continue to do so. I may find a way to easily tag them such that everything but a private overlay file can be shared. Still, I'm open to working to a standard and sharing if there's common agreement.

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Old 06-25-2012, 02:20 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myway View Post
There some roads with highway=residential, not correct in the woods.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway

better is than unclassified
Beware "unclassified" does not mean "no classification". What it really means is "minor public road". For roads of unknown classification, highway=road should be used.

I agree, unclassified is probably the correct tag for many roads through parkland.
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Old 06-25-2012, 02:30 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
I may find the time to script a routine that converts particular road types from the old Ibycus data to OSM and then just post the files for others to personally use. I just did the set I'm running manually, but scripting it shouldn't be too hard.
I'd love to see that script... maybe send me a PM if you ever write it.

I have a ton of GPS tracks I haven't submitted to OSM yet, because it's just too much work... and I've already got some code for parsing GPX files.
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Old 06-25-2012, 04:31 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [TASF]Overkill View Post
Road jurisdiction

Specifically relevant in the U.S... Many of the Forest Service roads within a given National Forest are obviously owned and maintained by the national forest service... but the remaining public roads are still just standard public roads. How does the OSM community generally tag the jurisdiction that a given road is under? I can't find any examples of how it SHOULD be done.

There's some interesting examples for my questions here:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=37...om=15&layers=M

The "FR" roads, the dotted lines... Those are Forestry Roads and are within the jurisdiction of the George Washington National Forest, which is of course the big green mess that the whole screen is covered by.

The Blue Ridge Parkway, which sweeps up from the bottom center, is actually within the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.

And yet VA 130 is a local or state maintained road, as are all/most of the other named roads in that view.

If I am rendering a map of specifically roads belonging to the Forest Service, and I want to code the NPS and state/local roads for reference... Is there a tag or a relation that is generally used for that?
US roads tagging

There is the network tag and operator tag and ownership

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/949048


search NPS http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/inde...ice&fulltext=1






These are three different things:
  1. Owner
  2. Jurisdiction
  3. Maintain
1. Owner of a way/area The legally property .
2. This is mostly a area. Border. But jurisdictions can overlap or a way in a a area can fall under jurisdiction of a other junta. I know that owners rent their area to nature management associations. This is the sign you see, their websites are not always correct, because they say they own and they mean they manage. So owner and juriditions could be different.
3. Roads can be maintained by others, than the owner. I know that owners rent them to others for nothing if they maintain it. Legal agreement is laying underneath.

If you have access to all this agreements you can tag it right.

Area (closed way) and way, could not be combined in routing program, yet.

Say do not route over a unclassified highway inside a villageborder, but use unclassified ouside the village border.
Because mostly village/town unclassified highway are tagged wrong, must be residental.
It is no fun riding your 4x4 through a residential area.

Myway screwed with this post 06-25-2012 at 01:57 PM
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Old 06-25-2012, 11:57 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
Also, I'd be suspicious of anyone who says "you can use it for anything". Because any good lawyer will tell you there is no such thing.

In most countries, if you put that language in a contract it will render the entire contract invalid - reverting you back to where you were if the contract never existed (plus the added complication of false promises).
Yes basically I was simplifying. *However* it is possible to put data in the "public domain" in many countries (e.g. USA and sorta UK). Most (All?) things from the US federal government are in the public domain, which basically means free from copyright. You can literally do whatever you want with them, copyright-wise. Some map data was imported into OSM for the USA because it was released into the public domain ( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER )

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
Beware "unclassified" does not mean "no classification". What it really means is "minor public road".
Yep. Since OSM started in the UK, it uses some UK terminology, and under UK law, there are some roads that have a classification of "unclassified". Bit of a head-wreck. :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbroderick View Post
Based on the discussion about routing and motorcycles, it appears that the general consensus is that highway=path implies access=no, foot=yes, i.e. no motor vehicles, so perhaps highway=path isn't the best option?
Careful, nearly everyone else in OSM is using "access" to refer to "are you legally allowed onto this road/into this building/through this gate/etc.". So "access=no" means "No-one is legally allowed access to this thing" to lots of people using OSM. This is probably not what you mean. "access" usually refers to "every type of thing (from walking to driving)". If you want to say "You cannot bike here" do "motorcycle=no" etc.

Remember there's a difference between what you're legally allowed do, and what you physically can (or cannot) do. "access" is for the law.
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:09 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ebel View Post
Careful, nearly everyone else in OSM is using "access" to refer to "are you legally allowed onto this road/into this building/through this gate/etc.". So "access=no" means "No-one is legally allowed access to this thing" to lots of people using OSM. This is probably not what you mean. "access" usually refers to "every type of thing (from walking to driving)". If you want to say "You cannot bike here" do "motorcycle=no" etc.

Remember there's a difference between what you're legally allowed do, and what you physically can (or cannot) do. "access" is for the law.
Yes, I was trying to understand that distinction and how it should be coded.

Quoted from the OSM forums,

Quote:
In the default mkgmap settings paths are already blocked for motor vehicles:
highway=footway|highway=path|highway=steps {add access = no; add foot = yes}
i.e. "highway = path" implies "access = no", "foot = yes".

Which is counter to the standards someone was describing above. Personally, I think that it would make sense to have both highway = footpath implying access = no, foot = yes while highway = path would not imply that. With that said, I don't know how data already in the database is coded beyond what I've looked at in attempting to not get routed up USFS hiking trails.

I'm quite familiar with the distinction between "you may legally drive this" and "you can drive this" thanks to the class 4 roads and legal trails in Vermont.

kbroderick screwed with this post 06-25-2012 at 12:11 PM Reason: added OSM forum link to correct post
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:41 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbroderick View Post
In the default mkgmap settings paths are already blocked for motor vehicles:
highway=footway|highway=path|highway=steps {add access = no; add foot = yes}
MKGMap is a map renderer. It is definitely bad practice to tag just to get the output you expect from a renderer. The writer of that render engine basically applied his interpretation of the tags. As someone getting started out writing a renderer, I would definitely rather be educated on what the tags ACTUALLY mean than encouraging people who end up using my renderer to go change OSM to match what I expect. :-)

So far it's been nice to have my mind changed!

[TASF]Overkill screwed with this post 06-25-2012 at 12:47 PM
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Old 06-25-2012, 01:44 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbroderick View Post
Yes, I was trying to understand that distinction and how it should be coded.

Quoted from the OSM forums,



i.e. "highway = path" implies "access = no", "foot = yes".

Which is .........................
mkgmap for making garmin maps.

Here you see the hand of the makers of mkgmap, the angle of view. How they think. A streetview for motor_vehicle.
Access is all about can/may you route over there. Routing is all about do i route over there. Never thought of a unpaved route versions for motor_vehicle.
Default line style is not hardcoded.
Default can be skiped and recreated.
Done that for allroadmap.

Garmin maps has a limited of codes for lines that are routable.0x01/0x13, 0x16, 0x1a, 0x1b

Any linetag combination you could make a line from.
If i want the highway=bridleway & owner=USFS [0x06 road_class=1 road_speed=3 resolution 21]
Then i make a routable line of it, and with a type file i give the code 0x06 a color/the look.

Even you can change the tag by {set motorcyle=yes}
or a combination of tags.

So Garmin have this button avoid unpaved road, so with the set tag you can flag what is in your revciew a unpaved road.
So tollroad is sometimes creative used for somthing else.

So take tags in OSM how it is. And set them so. Common rules. Use common tags.

Then render how you want it to look like.

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Old 06-25-2012, 05:35 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
I'd love to see that script... maybe send me a PM if you ever write it.

I have a ton of GPS tracks I haven't submitted to OSM yet, because it's just too much work... and I've already got some code for parsing GPX files.
I don't mind sharing but I don't think the script would help you... I'd do it in Perl to rip the img files to mp format via cGPSmapper, then rip the guts out of those (a Perl speciality), then route them through an MP2OSM script that I modified to, you know, actually work without hardcoded filenames and the like.

For converting gpx to OSM, I'd just use JOSM. Import (via the gpx plugin), convert to a data layer, put the mapnik image underneath, and just delete anything that's duplicated. The keyboard shortcuts actually make that fairly easy, once you get the hang of them. That's what I did with all my old tracks; didn't take that long. It'd be pretty hard to script any of that, what with having to interpret that a track is actually near enough to an existing road to be a duplicate.

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Old 06-25-2012, 08:41 PM   #75
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tagging...

Okay, so to put this back on track... (pun intended)

We have this way and we want to tag it such that's useful for ADVriders, dualsport bikers, and maybe even dirtbikers. Once this data is in, it needs to get rendered to something useful. Do we also publish render-rules, or snippets of them, for various packages? If so, which ones?

I agree that tagging to get an existing set of render-rules to work is a bad idea. However, there's no point in tagging a particular way if it's impossible to render them usefully. Thus, we need to consider render packages and rules for them as part of this.

What do we want when we use a map?
  • the ways
  • how difficult they are to ride (how can this be rendered?)
  • hazards along them
  • automated routing (this is harder)
Thus: propose a tag, see how it can be rendered... does it work for us?

My answers --- yours will be different:

I use Maperitive to render to tiles. I run mostly black/white maps with very thick ways in order to make them clear while riding. Thus, I have limited scope for rendering detail. However, I don't need automated routing nor do I need Garmin img maps.

My proposed solution, as yet untested:
  • I will take various highway types and generate default difficulty levels which can be overridden by tagged values. These, I will render either dot, dash, or solid. In other words, I'll compress track/path/etc. distinctions and render ways based on difficulty instead.
  • I will create a select few hazard icons and render in either colour or size (not sure yet) to show difficulty level. I'll share the rule snippets that do this. I will modify my existing barriers to match this standard.
  • I will make extra ways that run on top of existing ways where I want to denote one-way hazards. These ways will not be tagged with anything other than my hazard info, thus they should not render anywhere except where I tell them to. Further, I'll keep them as a separate OSM file not uploaded into OSM proper. They will just render as arrows in the easy direction, likely over top the existing way if I can make that happen consistently.
  • If someone comes up with a directional hazard system that works with routing software then I'll look at migrating over and sharing my data.
  • I will start using the survey_date tag for any gps tracks I import and/or any ways I happen to ride, at least where conditions are likely to change (as in unmaintained ways).
All I need is the difficulty level tag to use. Personally, I'm partial to the 'dirtbike:scale' tag, though I'd like to see it extended to include hazard difficulty and the like instead of just surface. Not extended in the dirtbike:scale:hazard sense but rather just extending the definitions of existing levels. Not sure of this though, I'll have to actually try writing the rules to see how it all works.


I'll start by just tagging my private data files. If everyone decides on a different tag, it will be quick to change.


Comments?


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