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Old 06-26-2012, 05:49 AM   #76
abhibeckert
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Originally Posted by FixerDave View Post
I don't mind sharing but I don't think the script would help you... I'd do it in Perl to rip the img files to mp format via cGPSmapper, then rip the guts out of those (a Perl speciality), then route them through an MP2OSM script that I modified to, you know, actually work without hardcoded filenames and the like.
I wasn't planning to use it, just wanted to skim read over your source code to steal any good ideas.

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For converting gpx to OSM, I'd just use JOSM. Import (via the gpx plugin), convert to a data layer, put the mapnik image underneath, and just delete anything that's duplicated. The keyboard shortcuts actually make that fairly easy, once you get the hang of them. That's what I did with all my old tracks; didn't take that long.
I've already spent 50 or 60 hours doing that, and it's boring as fsck. I've got a couple thousand km's of tracks sitting in a directory, which I haven't added to OSM because it's so tedious. And there's a near-bottomless list of roads near where I live that haven't been mapped yet.

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It'd be pretty hard to script any of that, what with having to interpret that a track is actually near enough to an existing road to be a duplicate.
I reckon I can automate it. I've already got some of it happening with my custom iOS app, but there's more to do. At the very least I'd like to present a proposed change-set that just needs a few minor manual tweaks.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:05 AM   #77
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What do we want when we use a map?
  • the ways
  • how difficult they are to ride (how can this be rendered?)
  • hazards along them
  • automated routing (this is harder)
I guess my priorities are different to yours. I'm just trying to get everything on the map, and will worry about accurate tagging and the like at some later date (or let someone else do that part).

I wanna be able to show my buddy a great riding area on an actual map, instead of satellite photos... and in more remote areas, I want a bit more confidence to calculate how much fuel I'm gonna need, etc. I don't much care how difficult it is, because I can take my bike anywhere!

Have you seen dualsportmaps.com? When you import a GPX into his website, he calculates your speed at every point along the track and colour codes it. It seems to work well, speed and ride difficulty are pretty closely correlated. I've found I only need to make a few minor tweaks to the auto-calculated difficulty ratings.
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Old 06-26-2012, 11:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
I guess my priorities are different to yours. I'm just trying to get everything on the map, and will worry about accurate tagging and the like at some later date (or let someone else do that part).
With the old CanVec data, it's mostly done around here, at least for me. Just a matter of improving accuracy, making the connections, and adding in the new stuff that I find. Oh yeah, and maybe a little tagging for the masses.

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Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
I wanna be able to show my buddy a great riding area on an actual map, instead of satellite photos... and in more remote areas, I want a bit more confidence to calculate how much fuel I'm gonna need, etc. I don't much care how difficult it is, because I can take my bike anywhere!
Ya... well... I can go anywhere too It's just that, you know, sometimes I'm not really into the tight stuff... just lazy. Well, let's say there are times when I'd rather go fast than technical

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Originally Posted by abhibeckert View Post
Have you seen dualsportmaps.com? When you import a GPX into his website, he calculates your speed at every point along the track and colour codes it. It seems to work well, speed and ride difficulty are pretty closely correlated. I've found I only need to make a few minor tweaks to the auto-calculated difficulty ratings.
JOSM with the gpx plugin does this and, yes, I find it quite useful. JOSM is local so no need to upload to anywhere and have to worry about sharing tracks leading to my garage full of tools. The only problem is remembering if that red section was a tough go, lunch, or a pee-stop

David...
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:59 AM   #79
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http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dtrail
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Old 07-01-2012, 08:29 AM   #80
[TASF]Overkill
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US roads tagging

There is the network tag and operator tag and ownership

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/949048


search NPS http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/inde...ice&fulltext=1






These are three different things:
  1. Owner
  2. Jurisdiction
  3. Maintain
1. Owner of a way/area The legally property .
2. This is mostly a area. Border. But jurisdictions can overlap or a way in a a area can fall under jurisdiction of a other junta. I know that owners rent their area to nature management associations. This is the sign you see, their websites are not always correct, because they say they own and they mean they manage. So owner and juriditions could be different.
3. Roads can be maintained by others, than the owner. I know that owners rent them to others for nothing if they maintain it. Legal agreement is laying underneath.

If you have access to all this agreements you can tag it right.

Area (closed way) and way, could not be combined in routing program, yet.

Say do not route over a unclassified highway inside a villageborder, but use unclassified ouside the village border.
Because mostly village/town unclassified highway are tagged wrong, must be residental.
It is no fun riding your 4x4 through a residential area.

None of those wiki links strike me as slam dunks for how Forest Service roads should be tagged/relationed in order to show that they are specifically NFS roads, and I haven't found any solid examples that help me to grasp it.

Thanks for the help, though!
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:40 PM   #81
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Bumping from the dead...any more thoughts on this, a year later?

I'm running into this as I add some local class IV (unmaintained public ROW)I sure don't want to put them into OSM in a manner that results in a leaf-peeper getting routed down them in their trusty Miata, but I'd like to have them on the maps.

I realize there are two questions (one is what metadata should be attached to each route to identify it as questionable for passenger cars, and another as to how the rendering and routing engines handle that intelligently), but I figure that we can control the first issue...
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Old 08-22-2013, 09:45 PM   #82
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Remember, the most important thing in OSM is the data, not how some routers or renderers use it. A highway=track may be passable by a standard car, but other proposed tags out there such as smoothness= 4wd= etc can be used by routers and renderers to keep minivans off of a way.

Use as many accepted or proposed tags as you want to describe a way, but make sure to use them in the accepted ways

NEVER fudge on the data to try to make routing or rendering work a certain way. Google maps for instancr severs tracks that are "bad roads" to prevent anyone being able to route down them. But that makes it so you can't even route down hem for people who CAN drive them.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:28 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by [TASF]Overkill View Post
Remember, the most important thing in OSM is the data, not how some routers or renderers use it. A highway=track may be passable by a standard car, but other proposed tags out there such as smoothness= 4wd= etc can be used by routers and renderers to keep minivans off of a way.

Use as many accepted or proposed tags as you want to describe a way, but make sure to use them in the accepted ways

NEVER fudge on the data to try to make routing or rendering work a certain way. Google maps for instancr severs tracks that are "bad roads" to prevent anyone being able to route down them. But that makes it so you can't even route down hem for people who CAN drive them.
How it looks like:

Highway=track then use tracktype=grade(1-5)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype
Surface=*

Access tag:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Access
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:20 AM   #84
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The "grade" thing doesn't seem to really cover whether something is impassable to a low clearance vehicle or not. My wife's Mazda can coast through a field with no visible track, which would be "Grade5".

Specifically for helping to indicate that your average sedan should not be what is otherwise a "shitty forest road", here are some of the keys out there:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:4wd_only%3Dyes

The community basically tries to come to some agreement on how to tag specific information, and it's up to renderers/routers to decide what information they want to depend on. I'm not sure for instance how OSMAnd handles any of these tags, but if with these tags set it still tries to route me through one of those in regular car travel, that's a problem with OSMAnd!

Thanks for your work contributing roads!
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:51 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by [TASF]Overkill View Post
NEVER fudge on the data to try to make routing or rendering work a certain way. Google maps for instancr severs tracks that are "bad roads" to prevent anyone being able to route down them. But that makes it so you can't even route down hem for people who CAN drive them.
I get that point, in principal. The counter-argument, though, is that if all the rendering tools*in common use treat a particular datum in the same way, that is the de facto standard, regardless of what is written in a spec somewhere. Having worked with HTML for many years, I'm familiar with the pitfalls of specs vs rendering engines, and of coding to either without considering the other.

And I've noticed that there are some roads (Hurricane Mountain Road in New Hampshire used to be one) that I need to switch to "hiking" or "cycling" for Google to route me across. Now that makes more sense (and I realize that the roads I may want to be routed across on a knobby-tired bike are often roads that I do not want to drive in my sedan).

Re: the smoothness and 4wd_only tags, I don't like the latter because motorcycles are not 4WD by definition, and there are roads that are legally restricted to 4WD only. Smoothness seems poorly named, controversial, and the best option I've seen yet...although some of the pictures also lead me to believe that whoever wrote that article is not familiar with where people in Vermont often drive their 2wd, low-clearance passenger cars.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:05 AM   #86
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As the rendering projects etc are seperate from OSM's goals, really the de facto standard is just "How is everyone else doing this?". Generally there will be a close alignment with what everyone is doing and how renderers decide to work with data, obviously.

If a road is designated 4WD in real life, as many are, you know that that means you can travel it on your bike (Well probably. :-) ). If someone were to write a routing engine for general car traffic, they would exclude 4WD routes or things over a given "smoothness" threshold specifically to avoid getting someone stranded (I'm not sure which of the two is most popular, but you can certainly use both). But if they allowed you to pick "4wd truck" or "sedan" as your routing profile, that opens up some additional roads. If, even more narrowly, they allowed you to pick "dual sport motorcycle", that becomes a cross section (generally) of everything that a 4wd truck can traverse and everything that a dirt-bike can traverse. Etc.

I use OSMAnd, and I'm not sure if there are any other decent Android OSM apps. If OSMAnd routes me through Shoe Creek while driving my wife's car, it would not be appropriate to modify that to be a "footpath", or put a break in the line, or change the motorvehicles access tag to "private" or something like that. Obviously OSMAnd needs to know SOMETHING about the track so that it can avoid it when routing for "cars in general", but it's up to the developer to choose which tags they will pay attention to for that. The expectation is that if one tag is on 60% of roads and another is on 3%, they'll use the 60%, the more popular tag. But if two tags are close, they'll use the one that's easiest for them, even if it's not the most suitable for OSM data.

Oh man, having a Wiki sucks! :-) Would definitely be easier if there were one governing body to answer these things.
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