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Old 08-25-2013, 08:26 PM   #526
davebig
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[QUOTE=Abenteuerfahrer;
Has the former owner then reinstalled it again using an epoxy compound is speculative but can be done!

cheers...[/QUOTE]

No one would be that foolish I would hope, epoxying the threads of a ball joint would be criminal at the least.
The excellent German thread lock usually only requires a propane torch and comes apart nicely without allot of abuse.DB
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:43 PM   #527
DRONE OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abenteuerfahrer View Post
By looking at Drones snap shots of the ball joint and telelever... I suspect that the ball joint was removed with brute force at one time for whatever reason without heating the German micro encapsulated (thread locker) compound by the former owner or non BMW mechanic. Heat softens the compound for easier removal. It normaly requires a 46mm socket and a torgue of 130nm to set it with either a red or the green thread locker. In BMW history of.. ball joints have never failed...might have worn and where replaced, it's the connection of the ball joint to the aluminum fork bridge that is to be attended IF ever removed!

Since the ball joint is SS and removing it from an aluminum fork bridge unheated will require a torque in excess of probably 180-200+ nm which in my opinion will/might damage the threads. Has the former owner then reinstalled it again using an epoxy compound is speculative but can be done!

cheers...
I'm in possesion of the OEM lower fork bridge and the threads in it look clean and undamaged. No signs of any threadlock remnants in the threads so I'm thinking it WAS heated and the threads wiped clean by the P.O. when he removed it. What happened after that is anyone's guess, but according to the P.O. it was only ridden for 1000 miles after the install so I think it's unlikely he assembled it then took it apart then reassembled it.

Whether the part was installed correctly or not is something we'll never know. And I don't think we'll ever know if ONLY incorrect installations fail or can any installation fail. I think it's more important to focus on the fact that the threads CAN fail--even if it only happens on 1% of the installations.
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #528
Abenteuerfahrer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davebig View Post
No one would be that foolish I would hope, epoxying the threads of a ball joint would be criminal at the least.
The excellent German thread lock usually only requires a propane torch and comes apart nicely without allot of abuse.DB
Correct about the a basic heating with a propane torch would suffice to soften the thread locker.

Expoxying the treads of a ball joint has been done in emergency situations where it is a premanent fixture necessiating the total replacement of the fork bridge upon the end of a journey BUT since it is permanent and has no chance of ever coming out quite a few lived with it.

cheer...
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #529
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Don't worry, I'm counting!
  1. This didn't happen when I was going fast.
  2. This didn't happen in traffic.
  3. This didn't happen in the twisties.
  4. This didn't happen on steep stuff.
  5. The front wheel dished left, not right (think about it.)
  6. I'm still married (Queen Bee made it clear that it was over if anything happened to Kirby. )
Hi Drone .
Sad to hear about your smash with your sidecar .
I wish you a Full and speedy recovery.

Great Country you have to ride in Love the photos .
Drone i use a lot of marker paint, just one look and it is easy to tell if all is ok .


This is what i made for a trail reducer.Worked great ,very easy to ride.



All the best
Ian
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:59 PM   #530
davebig
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Ian sorry but I dislike your trail reducer also, you've changed the fork angle by moving one mounting point the top are studs in non metal bushings.

One has to force the studs out of line to assemble the fork with the trail reducer, so I guess none of you are willing to talk about inducing a force in a line that was not intended or engineered.DB
Is it necessary to ask did you ever check the ball joint when looking for your vibration ? As I recall I suggested you check everything that moves.DB
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:41 PM   #531
pops
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Hi davebig .
No 3 Joint Link on your diagram has movement ,it is designed that way by bmw for the movement that you get with the bmw telelever suspension, no force to put the studs in after fitting a trail reducer .

If you go more than 35mm with the trail reducer you will run out of movement in the top t tree.

Cheers Ian
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Old 08-26-2013, 12:36 AM   #532
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[*]The outfit was driven for 23,000 miles after the steering modification was installed with no sign of any problem.






Note that the threads of the steel ball joint are filled with aluminum alloy, and that there are no threads remaining in the ball joint fitting on the lower fork bridge. What happened, simply, is that the ball joint pulled the threads out of the bridge. Once that occurred, all that was needed was the right (wrong?) suspension movement to dislodge the ball joint from the bridge.

Hi Drone,
first, congratulations on surviving the wreck with no more injury than you did.
These photos clearly shows you correctly diagnosed the failure mode.
The ball joint's steel threads tore out of the aluminum bridge, threads and all.
I'd say the next aftermarket trail reduction kit should have the aluminum thread reworked with a Helicoil and the ball joint have it's thread long enough to take a locking nut. Slather the fix with red Loctite.
Fred Hill, S'toon.
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Old 08-26-2013, 06:34 AM   #533
davebig
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pops View Post
Hi davebig .
No 3 Joint Link on your diagram has movement ,it is designed that way by bmw for the movement that you get with the bmw telelever suspension, no force to put the studs in after fitting a trail reducer .

If you go more than 35mm with the trail reducer you will run out of movement in the top t tree.

Cheers Ian
Thanks Ian, whatever BMW had intended they get 108 USD for the bushing,bearing or link, could Drones mysterious vibration come from these being overly worn ?
Looking at ones forks on a washboard road one see's lots of movement fore an aft and on another note real long travel moto and enduro bikes are loose and sloppy.DB
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:51 AM   #534
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Glad to hear Kirby is okay. And I know what you mean about playing second fiddle. Everybody knows and loves Barley. Me? I'm known as Barley's Dad!

But tell us about you!

Shaka, when the walls fell.
Oh come on Peter we love you too. Your ok for a human LOL
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:04 AM   #535
Melrone
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Wow Dave told me about your accident this weekend at VBR3,but I had no ideal how bad it really was.I wish you the best of luck and glad to here you and your pooch are ok..Good luck.....
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:16 AM   #536
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Drone,
I'm glad you & Kirby are ok.
Thanks for posting so much info, it gives us all a lot to think about. I need to look at how I tether Jake so he can survive that kind of wreck.
I was also thinking about steering mods on my rig. Maybe I should consider a leading link system.
Hope to ride with you & Kirby someday soon

Gary
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:01 AM   #537
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Drone, glad you're OK. Wow.
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Old 08-27-2013, 06:47 AM   #538
davebig
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Drone
I did check my ball joint last night while washing the bugs off a bit, fine thanks to loctite.I'm irritated that some of your readers want to blame the ball joint.Whomever installed it did you no favor every metalsmith I showed your images too agreed without any prompting from me it came loose rocked a bit and eventually tore all the threads out.
I'd like to see what the upper one looked like ? Are the holes in the bushings elongated and distorted ? We could help resolve the trail mod question. Long before your crash I had decided to get a leading link late this fall so I can run large tires in the front.DB
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Old 08-27-2013, 07:52 AM   #539
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Drone,

Add me to the long list of inmates who are glad you and Kirby are pretty near OK. Sounds like your leg will take some time to fully heal.

My dog Locky and I rode the dual sport ride you set up at the 2012 Sidecar rally in CDA. I was the boat anchor that took forever to get ready to go and then had to stop for gas before we could leave town. Your patience was admirable. I am the Dean that Mr Cob posted the pictured of fixing my front forks during the Black Dog in June of this year.

I have had my 95 R1100GS with DMC sidecar since June 2012 and had several breakdowns but nothing that dumped me or Locky off of the rig like your crash. I aggressively ride the same sort of roads you do. Here is a run down of what has broken on my rig:

1. Sept 2012 Lower shock bolt on hack vibrated loose and broke off 20+ miles North of Imnaha, OR on Dug Bar landing road. I was able to strap the shock back in place and rode to Enterprise and replace the bolt.

2. June 2013 Black Dog D/S ride out of Odell, OR. Steering got very loose and handlebars were crooked. Found one bolt on fork bridge missing and another one broken off. Able to replace missing one on road side and limp back to camp for complete repairs. Next day the starter went out on the GS in the middle of a snowdrift. I am now in the BMW hall of shame because I had to be towed out by Mr COB with his Ural. OH yea, he video taped the whole adventure. I believe the title was "Undependable Ural rescues the Dependable BMW"

3. Aug 2013 Rat Dog D/S ride out of Tillamook, OR. I was checking the rig out once I got camp set up and found another broken bolt on the fork bridge. I think my problems with the fork bridge bolts are due to needing better shocks on my rig. Unless I am very careful the front end will bottom out in tough conditions. I am trying to save up the $$$ to get a set of after market shock custom sprung for my rig.

4. 2 days later at the Rat Dog. 9 miles from camp on forest service roads the sidecar rear cross member broke and the suspension dropped down enough to turn the fender into a giant brake. I was able to strap it up with a couple of tie down straps and ride it back to camp. But the rig came home on a tow truck and the frame is now up at DMC being repaired and powder coated. If I figure out how to attach a picture I will post one of the broken frame.

Hope your leg heals fast and you get your stunning rig back on the road soon.

Dean
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:13 AM   #540
Dan Alexander
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I haven't hacked my 11GS yet (this winter) but I'm starting to have some concerns
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