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Old 08-06-2014, 05:12 PM   #1
blk-betty OP
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Any Car Salesman Care to Answer a couple Questions?

Trying to negotiate a purchase involving a trade for a 2015 MINI Cooper Countryman S and have talked to 2 dealers, one local and the other 3 hours away. My trade is 2011 BMW 128i maxed out with options, premium package in great shape and only 28,300 miles. The MINI has to be ordered so I realize I lose a little negotiation on the purchase price.

According to KBB, NADA, Edmunds, and USAA used car trade in valuation guides for my car with all options in great condition with low miles, and within my zip code region claim about $19-$19.5 in trade. Same sources list retail price on CPO dealers lot at $23,600 and non CPO at $22,100

Local dealer is offering only $17.5 with no discount off MSRP. Dealer 3 hours away is offering $17.750 and discounting car $500 off MSRP.

When I called second dealer to ask for a trade estimate and told her I thought the first dealer was low balling she told me my make, model and year car sells within 1 week on their lot (BMW/ MINI) for $22-23k. She asked what the first dealer offered in trade (I know my mistake for telling her) then called back after talking to her used car manager and offered $17.750 sight unseen.

So what gives? I realize anything is only as valuable as what someone is willing to pay. Are the KBB, NADA, Edmunds, USAA guides that far off reality in trade value but spot on for retail value or are these dealers trying to lowball me?

I have a lot of equity in the BMW and have the money to make the transaction, I just hate the feeling that I'm being taken advantage of.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:24 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Trying to negotiate a purchase involving a trade for a 2015 MINI Cooper Countryman S and have talked to 2 dealers, one local and the other 3 hours away. My trade is 2011 BMW 128i maxed out with options, premium package in great shape and only 28,300 miles.

When I called second , I just hate the feeling that I'm being taken advantage of.
Their number doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I just logged into manheim and looked in your area, and it looks like they can get cars like yours any day of the week, and twice on Thursdays for between $16900-$18200. The last 6 transactions were $15900, $17600, $16500, $17500, and $17300. The $17500 sale had even less miles than yours, and creampuffs with sub-20kmi aren't unheard of. That means they don't have to tryu hard to acquire something like what you've got. All the extras don't add up to much, bcs they're pretty typical in the highline models. Who's going to buy a Beemer, and go for pleather?

So, if the wholesale market is in that range, IMO, it makes sense to me that they're offering $17.5k. I mean, they *might* be low-balling you by maybe a few hundred. But definitely not a thousand or anything like that.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:31 PM   #3
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I had a pretty honest salesman tell me that NADA, KBB, and the others don't mean anything to them. They go off of what the cars are selling for at auction. He gave me a website that had current auction prices for all makes and models but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:38 PM   #4
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As an FYI,

There is a Mini thread around here that made some rather harsh comments about the QC & issues on Mini's.

Good luck on your new car whatever you buy.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:54 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by DriveShaft View Post
Their number doesn't sound unreasonable to me. I just logged into manheim and looked in your area, and it looks like they can get cars like yours any day of the week, and twice on Thursdays for between $16900-$18200. The last 6 transactions were $15900, $17600, $16500, $17500, and $17300. The $17500 sale had even less miles than yours,
Thanks.

That is exactly the information I was looking for. The local salesman mentioned Manheim but having never heard the name I didn't know what it was but figured it must be some inside the industry source not available to the general public.

Kinda sucks but it is what it is and good to know they are being reasonable in their offer.

Thanks again.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:59 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bill 310 View Post
As an FYI,

There is a Mini thread around here that made some rather harsh comments about the QC & issues on Mini's.

Good luck on your new car whatever you buy.
Haha, I started that thread.

I admit I'm hesitant to buy one based on past history but it looks like the newer models and the Countryman/Paceman line are reporting average or above average reliability at least over the last 2 years....how they will fare in 5 years is anyone's guess but the track record doesn't look too rosy.

But, the damn thing was a hoot to drive so I'm seriously considering taking my chances.

What I don't understand is they generally have had poor reliability but some of the best resale value....
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:15 PM   #7
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Haha, I started that thread.

I admit I'm hesitant to buy one based on past history but it looks like the newer models and the Countryman/Paceman line are reporting average or above average reliability at least over the last 2 years....how they will fare in 5 years is anyone's guess but the track record doesn't look too rosy.

But, the damn thing was a hoot to drive so I'm seriously considering taking my chances.

What I don't understand is they generally have had poor reliability but some of the best resale value....
My brother's wife has a Clubman 2012 it has been visiting the dealership on a more than casual basis.

I decided I liked motorcycles more than cars so I bought a Lexus (on my second one now) and bought more motorcycles with what I save in BMW/Mercedes service costs
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:32 PM   #8
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I decided I liked motorcycles more than cars so I bought a Lexus (on my second one now) and bought more motorcycles with what I save in BMW/Mercedes service costs
I hear ya. When I was married we bought my wife a IS250 5 years ago and she's still driving it with no problems.

When I bought the 128i I was actually shopping a Lexus 250 and test drove the BMW on a whim. After one short drive I was sold, just like the MINI.

Divorced with no kids my 1 year Vizsla is now my best friend and she goes with me everywhere so I need a car she can ride in and the 2 door 128 is not it. I have a 03 4Runner in great shape for a 12 year old vehicle but with 175k miles I'm hesitant to drive it all the time and use up its remaining useful life so I'm looking to replace the BMW.

I know it's stupid but if not for the dog I'd keep the 128. I'm fortunate to be able to afford a second "nice" car so besides more bikes, what the hell am I going to spend my money on anyway. Figured I get a car that I actually enjoy driving unlike the IS250 which although comfortable was rather boring and with the dog I want a hatchback.

Btw, my sister has a '13 Paceman and it hasn't seen the shop except for routine service.
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blk-betty screwed with this post 08-06-2014 at 07:46 PM
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:03 PM   #9
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The trade number looks reasonable to me as well, but if you have a Carmax store in your area, I would suggest you take your trade in and get a written buy-bid from them. Carmax pays a lot for pre-owned cars, mainly because people are bringing them the cars, so they don't have to go out and buy them at auction and incur transportation costs. They also have an opportunity to inspect the cars pretty thoroughly before they buy them, so good cars that don't really need reconditioning get all the money. If the Carmax bid is better than what you've been offered, bring it to the store that gave you the better price on the new car, and see if they'll meet it. In most cases, they will to make a car deal.
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:06 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
Haha, I started that thread.

I admit I'm hesitant to buy one based on past history but it looks like the newer models and the Countryman/Paceman line are reporting average or above average reliability at least over the last 2 years....how they will fare in 5 years is anyone's guess but the track record doesn't look too rosy.

But, the damn thing was a hoot to drive so I'm seriously considering taking my chances.

What I don't understand is they generally have had poor reliability but some of the best resale value....
Not to derail you too much but if you want a car that is a hoot to drive, try a Ford Focus ST. But it seems you like the German cars being that you own a 1 series right now. So feel free to ignore me.
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:57 AM   #11
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You've pretty much screwed yourself at this point. Assuming you cant find dealer #3, just do the best you can or walk away. In the future work it as two separate deals.

Step 1 Negotiate price on the new car you want. Never mention trade in. Say you arent interested, don't even tell them what you currently drive.
Step 2 The day you show up to pick up said car negotiate to trade in the old one.
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Old 08-07-2014, 05:15 AM   #12
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Another tactic to consider is is the new order.

Look at it this way- I buy cars (checked the mannheim values too and got the same results as already posted)

I have to find the car, inspect, bid (you lose more than you get), BUY, carry the inventory, inspect again, repair, clean them up, advertise, and carry the inventory. All cost money. Usual profit margin is 25-30%

I have lots of folks that want me to get a specific car for them for a specific price. By doing so, I still have to find the car and do a basic inspection (same as I already do), then I have an immediate flip, virtually no carrying cost, and I cut out all of the steps listed above. Usual profit margin 10%

The dealer floors their cars- so essentially they have 90 days before a big payment is due.

Tell the dealers 1,2,and keep going that they can discount to XXX price, and if they do, you will buy from them. Cite that they only have to spend time ordering the car and have the kid in the back detail it before you pick it up. Let them know that they are already making $5k off the trade for a very low energy transaction. Then tell them they will have a customer for life and as long as they are reasonable with the order price, you will order your future vehicles from them.
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Old 08-07-2014, 05:33 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Yamarocket630 View Post
Step 1 Negotiate price on the new car you want. Never mention trade in. Say you arent interested, don't even tell them what you currently drive.
Step 2 The day you show up to pick up said car negotiate to trade in the old one.
That is exactly what I did:

Purchase price: Dealer 1 said MSRP no discount, no if's ands or buts. Dealer 2 quoted $500 off MSRP.

Trade in figure negotiated 3 days later: Dealer 1: $17.5 after inspection. Dealer 2: $17.750 sight unseen.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:10 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by blk-betty View Post
I just hate the feeling that I'm being taken advantage of.
Goes hand in hand with buying a car from a dealer, in my experience.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:22 AM   #15
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Post it on the flea market for $18500 and give it a week.
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