2012 ktm 500 exc? - Page 10

Visigothic · 08-02-2011, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardU

+1

Looks like the head on the 500 is SOHC, and the head on the 350 is DOHC. Any thoughts on that? Differences in reliability, performance?

DOHC vs SOHC The DOHC takes longer to work on. Its like having a Vtwin SOHC, sorta.

DOHC allows the cam to ride above the cam via a bucket shim design without the use of rocker arms for higher RPMs. Less valve lash. Other than that I guess theres no real difference other than to give an engine designer something to do.

I like the 500, SOHC has roller tapets the DOHC does not, DOHC two cams with one or two chains no rollers or SOHC one cam with rollers and one chain. Take your pick . For most people it makes no difference.

SOHC is more DIY friendly: valve adj.

Chime in here somebody.

gmtcm · 08-02-2011, 09:20 PM

So when will the 500 XCF-W's really arrive in the USA dealer showrooms? Each shop I query says something different.

Visigothic · 08-02-2011, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmtcm

So when will the 500 XCF-W's really arrive in the USA dealer showrooms? Each shop I query says something different.

I thought the EXCs were to get here in Sept but the release could depend on back stock of 2011 530s at dealers.

"Aih' hef qiman ga-tairan reik nauhap'-p'an af-slahan ceasar ...... alls fram-himma fra-qistnan dat jainar bi unsar mnags fotus fram meins kun ...... ahhhhhh."

"I have come to dethrone an empire and it's ceasar......which now lay in ruin at the feet of my fellow tribesmen......ahhhhhh." VG

Yardstick · 08-03-2011, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Visigothic

DOHC vs SOHC The DOHC takes longer to work on. Its like having a Vtwin SOHC, sorta.

DOHC allows the cam to ride above the cam via a bucket shim design without the use of rocker arms for higher RPMs. Less valve lash. Other than that I guess theres no real difference other than to give an engine designer something to do.

I like the 500, SOHC has roller tapets the DOHC does not, DOHC two cams with one or two chains no rollers or SOHC one cam with rollers and one chain. Take your pick . For most people it makes no difference.

SOHC is more DIY friendly: valve adj.

Chime in here somebody.

I don't know how they do the single lung, twin cam KTM motors, but with the 950/990 the twin cams on each cylinder have a combination gear/chain drive. The chain drives a single gear that drives both cams. After lining everything up at TDC for one cylinder, the cams come out quick and easy by just removing cap retainers. You don't have to deal with a chain at all. I think if the small motors had a similar setup, they would be easier to deal with than the single cam with shims design of the 530 and new 500. Not that either is especially difficult to deal with.

rtadlock · 08-03-2011, 10:13 AM

People complaining about EFI reminds me of when all my friends refused to ride 4-stroke moto X bikes when I was in college and the sport was going that way. I knew 4 stroke was the future, but all my friends thought my bike was fat, slow and hard to start (it was all of those :) ). I stuck with it, and slowly but surely they all moved to 4 strokes (lest they be left behind on the track). Anyway, people complain about EFI on the 990's, and I love it! You know what I did the other day? Rode from my house at just around 5k up to 13k feet. You know what happened to my friend on his carbbed 950? He got stuck coasting/pushing his flooded bike back down to where it would start. I guess he could have changed his jetting, you know, because carbs are so easy to work on.

Yardstick · 08-03-2011, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rtadlock

People complaining about EFI reminds me of when all my friends refused to ride 4-stroke moto X bikes when I was in college and the sport was going that way. I knew 4 stroke was the future, but all my friends thought my bike was fat, slow and hard to start (it was all of those :) ). I stuck with it, and slowly but surely they all moved to 4 strokes (lest they be left behind on the track). Anyway, people complain about EFI on the 990's, and I love it! You know what I did the other day? Rode from my house at just around 5k up to 13k feet. You know what happened to my friend on his carbbed 950? He got stuck coasting/pushing his flooded bike back down to where it would start. I guess he could have changed his jetting, you know, because carbs are so easy to work on.

Yep!

I've been saying that I come from the new school of engineering. Sensors and feedback loops make a lot more sense to me than a bunch of orifices, needle, vacuum, etc... Drum brakes and carburetors have always seemed like a half step from Rube Goldberg devices.

Dazed Productions · 08-03-2011, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yardstick

Yep!

I've been saying that I come from the new school of engineering. Sensors and feedback loops make a lot more sense to me than a bunch of orifices, needle, vacuum, etc... Drum brakes and carburetors have always seemed like a half step from Rube Goldberg devices.

Yes, but the sensors and feedback loops always have to connect to something physical with needles, orifices etc. For me its a bit of the devil you know and also a like of simplicity. For every component in an FI system (like an injector) the is a whole extra level of detail you can drill down into. I studdied electronics at uni and the early (motronic era) FI systems. At the time I was all for the additional control they give. Now I see FI systems as something enforced on us for emissions, something that is a layer more complex (needs more information to run, more sensors, more pumps etc) and something more prone to failure. On 10year old carb bikes, one of their main issues is their ageing wiring looms, quite how the FI ones are coping??! I have got to know carbs and never had major issues with altitude (not to say I haven't lost more power than friends on FI bikes, but not let me down). Equally, I love the simplicity of record decks, it sits unused and I play music through a computer but I could never bring myself to sell it.
I bought a 41mm fcr recently (didn't pay $850) to do an FI-carb conversion on my next bike. Will it make the bike any better? Probably not but it will be my bike and that's the way I like them!

cyborg · 08-03-2011, 12:45 PM

Owned many bikes since 1972 (so I could be old school). I haven't had a float-bowl carbed bike since 2003 and that was a new crappy-carbed DRZ400S. I've had way more trouble with carbed bikes over my decades of riding than with EFI systems on bikes. Had '00 and '02 Triumph Tigers and '05 Montesa Cota 4RT trials bike, and currently have a '07 KTM 990S, '07 Aprilia RXV550 and Yamaha WR250R -- all EFI and none of them have had a speck of trouble in the carbuertation dept, never failed on long remote trips, and all the bikes listed including the big bikes have been punished: long miles, crashes, cartwheeling, upside down, water, mud, heavy dust, etc.

I'm pretty happy with EFI (and by golly my cars have had it for decades) and the new 500 looks VERY tasty!

Navin · 08-03-2011, 01:44 PM

The FI on this bike will not adjust for elevation or temp. Just like the Huskys and Burgs it will need a tune/tuner to compensate for different variables, like an exhaust. Had to put a piggyback tuner on a 310 to fatten it up in winter. Had less than 100 miles on my Burg when the fuel pump started seizing. Lots of guys are fighting clogged injectors and bad pumps on all the latest FI dirt bikes.

Go see the 690 thread where they are discussing additional filters right now. FI isn't everything many promised it would be, including economy. What it has brought is a microscopicly better throttle response with additional weight and complexity. I have yet to "break" a FCR carb but could field strip it to clear the bowl if it was ever needed. My FI bike stopped running and that was it. Check the fuses and push. Wonderful!

Magile · 08-03-2011, 02:57 PM

"...the 450 and 500 were especially surprising during the test. In fact, I knew the 350 would be good after enjoying its motocross counterpart last year at its launch. What did shock me was just how great the big-bore models handled, and just how agile they were in their own right."

"Power-wise there’s five extra horsepower at the crank of the 500 (58hp compared with 53hp), plus an additional four Nm of torque (52 vs. 48). You can feel it, especially when cruising along, but unless you’re a heavier guy you probably won’t notice too many advantages. It’s a nice option to have though..."

http://www.motoonline.com.au/2011/07...-stroke-range/

cyborg · 08-03-2011, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navin

The FI on this bike will not adjust for elevation or temp. Just like the Huskys and Burgs it will need a tune/tuner to compensate for different variables, like an exhaust.

The Australian article mentioned "The newly developed engine management system by Keihin with electronic fuel injection and 42 mm throttle body secures spontaneous and powerful response and maximum performance. Automatic temperature and altitude compensation are state of the art."
and
"In addition to this, the user-setting tool available through PowerParts allows data logging and also to change the ignition and the EFI mapping in just a few mouse clicks".

but hey they're just journalists and KTM just feeding them hype eh?

Visigothic · 08-03-2011, 11:55 PM

I'm very surprised that no after market vendors have developed carb' mods for the 690R yet. Vortex has their CDI unit that some say helps but still no carb mods . The 2011 690R was said to have an all new throttle body etc. Looking hard at this 500 but if it turns out to be as good as the 690R FI I'll find an old XR and put it on a diet.

"Aih' hef qiman ga-tairan reik nauhap'-p'an af-slahan ceasar ...... alls fram-himma fra-qistnan dat jainar bi unsar mnags fotus fram meins kun ...... ahhhhhh."

"I have come to dethrone an empire and it's ceasar......which now lay in ruin at the feet of my fellow tribesmen......ahhhhhh." VG

Navin · 08-04-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyborg

The Australian article mentioned "The newly developed engine management system by Keihin with electronic fuel injection and 42 mm throttle body secures spontaneous and powerful response and maximum performance. Automatic temperature and altitude compensation are state of the art."
and
"In addition to this, the user-setting tool available through PowerParts allows data logging and also to change the ignition and the EFI mapping in just a few mouse clicks".

but hey they're just journalists and KTM just feeding them hype eh?

I stand corrected then! These were the promises made by guys thinking FI was going to fix everything temp and altitude related a few years ago. I figured it was the darn good but not perfect FI my 11 570 has. Hopefully KTM got it right, their track record with FI isn't exactly stellar.

Duken4evr · 08-04-2011, 05:27 PM

KTM uses the Japanese Kehin throttle body in the 'Bergs, sounds like this bike uses the same part (42mm TB) as the 'Bergs. The actual FI system is simple and reliable. The issues seen on the 'Bergs are dumb ones that are easily fixable by KTM, and, if necessary, the owners. Shame on KTM if it comes to that with this new model though.

The issues are fuel pumps and inadequate fuel filtration. Adding a small metal canister fuel filter from a Can-Am quad with a better micron rating than the craptastic OEM in tank one to the fuel line solves this issue on the 'Bergs. A fuel pump is a pretty basic item. Seems silly to have problems with those. Our cars (and my 5 year old street bike for that matter) get along fine. The rest of the system (ECU, throttle body, temp sensor, etc) seem "normal" and not a reliability issue.

Anyway, the performance benefits of FI in a dirt bike are awesome. Perfect response, always, no matter what the temp and elevations are, or how gnarly the terrain is. No stuttering instant sharp response that never misses a beat. I would not want to go back to a dirt bike with a carb on it.

Good to see a single oil supply. The 'Bergs have this (1.5 quart shared capacity) - I change my 450 Berg's oil every 15 hours / 250 miles and it never needs any added in between. Changing it is a breeze too.

The new KTM 500 looks great! Don't fear the FI.

Navin · 08-04-2011, 05:38 PM

I've had my comp mapped 570 Burger flame out several times per race, have yet to grab a handful on my FCRed 505 or 530 and have that happen! Hope this 500 is better but even the 2011 Burgs aint perfect, and add crimped/collapsed fuel lines in the tankm boiling fuel and a split in tank filter to the list of things you can't fix trailside. All documented problems on this years Burgs along with the filtering/clogging and failed pumps.

08-03-2011, 10:13 AM	#140
rtadlock Beastly Adventurer Joined: Apr 2010 Location: Denver Oddometer: 1,011	People complaining about EFI reminds me of when all my friends refused to ride 4-stroke moto X bikes when I was in college and the sport was going that way. I knew 4 stroke was the future, but all my friends thought my bike was fat, slow and hard to start (it was all of those :) ). I stuck with it, and slowly but surely they all moved to 4 strokes (lest they be left behind on the track). Anyway, people complain about EFI on the 990's, and I love it! You know what I did the other day? Rode from my house at just around 5k up to 13k feet. You know what happened to my friend on his carbbed 950? He got stuck coasting/pushing his flooded bike back down to where it would start. I guess he could have changed his jetting, you know, because carbs are so easy to work on. __________________ KTM 500 XCW

08-03-2011, 02:57 PM	#145
Magile "What exit?" Joined: Apr 2005 Location: Exit 163, NJ Oddometer: 320	MotoOnline.com.au rides the...500 EXC "...the 450 and 500 were especially surprising during the test. In fact, I knew the 350 would be good after enjoying its motocross counterpart last year at its launch. What did shock me was just how great the big-bore models handled, and just how agile they were in their own right." "Power-wise there’s five extra horsepower at the crank of the 500 (58hp compared with 53hp), plus an additional four Nm of torque (52 vs. 48). You can feel it, especially when cruising along, but unless you’re a heavier guy you probably won’t notice too many advantages. It’s a nice option to have though..." http://www.motoonline.com.au/2011/07...-stroke-range/

08-04-2011, 05:27 PM	#149
Duken4evr Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Mar 2011 Location: Parker, CO Oddometer: 164	KTM uses the Japanese Kehin throttle body in the 'Bergs, sounds like this bike uses the same part (42mm TB) as the 'Bergs. The actual FI system is simple and reliable. The issues seen on the 'Bergs are dumb ones that are easily fixable by KTM, and, if necessary, the owners. Shame on KTM if it comes to that with this new model though. The issues are fuel pumps and inadequate fuel filtration. Adding a small metal canister fuel filter from a Can-Am quad with a better micron rating than the craptastic OEM in tank one to the fuel line solves this issue on the 'Bergs. A fuel pump is a pretty basic item. Seems silly to have problems with those. Our cars (and my 5 year old street bike for that matter) get along fine. The rest of the system (ECU, throttle body, temp sensor, etc) seem "normal" and not a reliability issue. Anyway, the performance benefits of FI in a dirt bike are awesome. Perfect response, always, no matter what the temp and elevations are, or how gnarly the terrain is. No stuttering instant sharp response that never misses a beat. I would not want to go back to a dirt bike with a carb on it. Good to see a single oil supply. The 'Bergs have this (1.5 quart shared capacity) - I change my 450 Berg's oil every 15 hours / 250 miles and it never needs any added in between. Changing it is a breeze too. The new KTM 500 looks great! Don't fear the FI. __________________ 2010 Husaberg FE450 (plated) 2006 Yamaha FZ1 Duken4evr screwed with this post 08-04-2011 at 05:36 PM

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08-02-2011, 09:20 PM	#137
gmtcm KTM RIDER Joined: Aug 2005 Location: ALBUQUERQUE, NM Oddometer: 295	So when will the 500 XCF-W's really arrive in the USA dealer showrooms? Each shop I query says something different.

08-03-2011, 12:45 PM	#143
cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam Joined: Jun 2004 Location: Pacific NorthWet Oddometer: 4,396	Owned many bikes since 1972 (so I could be old school). I haven't had a float-bowl carbed bike since 2003 and that was a new crappy-carbed DRZ400S. I've had way more trouble with carbed bikes over my decades of riding than with EFI systems on bikes. Had '00 and '02 Triumph Tigers and '05 Montesa Cota 4RT trials bike, and currently have a '07 KTM 990S, '07 Aprilia RXV550 and Yamaha WR250R -- all EFI and none of them have had a speck of trouble in the carbuertation dept, never failed on long remote trips, and all the bikes listed including the big bikes have been punished: long miles, crashes, cartwheeling, upside down, water, mud, heavy dust, etc. I'm pretty happy with EFI (and by golly my cars have had it for decades) and the new 500 looks VERY tasty!

08-03-2011, 01:44 PM	#144
Navin Unwounding Joined: Sep 2009 Location: Hitting the trails Oddometer: 4,326	The FI on this bike will not adjust for elevation or temp. Just like the Huskys and Burgs it will need a tune/tuner to compensate for different variables, like an exhaust. Had to put a piggyback tuner on a 310 to fatten it up in winter. Had less than 100 miles on my Burg when the fuel pump started seizing. Lots of guys are fighting clogged injectors and bad pumps on all the latest FI dirt bikes. Go see the 690 thread where they are discussing additional filters right now. FI isn't everything many promised it would be, including economy. What it has brought is a microscopicly better throttle response with additional weight and complexity. I have yet to "break" a FCR carb but could field strip it to clear the bowl if it was ever needed. My FI bike stopped running and that was it. Check the fuses and push. Wonderful!

08-03-2011, 11:55 PM	#147
Visigothic ^OP Gnarly Adventurer Joined: Aug 2010 Oddometer: 174	I'm very surprised that no after market vendors have developed carb' mods for the 690R yet. Vortex has their CDI unit that some say helps but still no carb mods . The 2011 690R was said to have an all new throttle body etc. Looking hard at this 500 but if it turns out to be as good as the 690R FI I'll find an old XR and put it on a diet. "Aih' hef qiman ga-tairan reik nauhap'-p'an af-slahan ceasar ...... alls fram-himma fra-qistnan dat jainar bi unsar mnags fotus fram meins kun ...... ahhhhhh." "I have come to dethrone an empire and it's ceasar......which now lay in ruin at the feet of my fellow tribesmen......ahhhhhh." VG

08-04-2011, 05:38 PM	#150
Navin Unwounding Joined: Sep 2009 Location: Hitting the trails Oddometer: 4,326	I've had my comp mapped 570 Burger flame out several times per race, have yet to grab a handful on my FCRed 505 or 530 and have that happen! Hope this 500 is better but even the 2011 Burgs aint perfect, and add crimped/collapsed fuel lines in the tankm boiling fuel and a split in tank filter to the list of things you can't fix trailside. All documented problems on this years Burgs along with the filtering/clogging and failed pumps.