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Old 08-21-2012, 10:51 AM   #2176
ABYSS
KTM
 
Joined: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu View Post
Abyss,

Well, Bzzz it is. Now the XCWs come with them. "removing hte thermostat will make it slow to warm up and then once it is hot it iwll stay that way." Only if there is no air flowing through the radiator. Like being stuck in a mud bog. It will come up to temperature more slowly but that is a minor issue if you are ripping around in the woods.

Let me get this straight. In Texas if it is hot and the thermostat is open you have hot fluid flowing through the engine. However, if in Texas you do not have a thermostat and you have hot fluid flowing through the engine you get in trouble. (?) Thermostats regulate the temperature at which coolant is allowed to flow through cooling fins. If they fail, and they do, the default position is open. However, if your thermostat failed in Texas you would be OK in hot weather since you still have a thermostat, even if inoperational. Correct?

Thermostats are used to help regulate temperatures. If the coolant is above its threshold temperature it just stays open. If the engine in question runs hot, such as some KTM engines, removing restrictions to the flow could help coolant circulate through the fins faster and possibly have lower overall temperatures. Samco says they have tested this so perhaps you should examine their data.

If you are doing a lot of dual sport riding the coolant should heat up less. In this case the thermostat would close, allowing the coolant to reach the design temperature threshold (around 92 degrees C. as I remember), open again, and then just repeat this cycle depending on the thermostat's setting.

Stu
please pardon my poor wording for the following.

the purpose of the thermostat is to shut off the coolant flow for two reasons the first is to get or keep the engine temp up to where it is hot enough to efficiantly function, However that is only half the equasion withthe flow stopped the coolant in the radatior is not cycling and that cools it down much more than it woudl if you had it flwoing all the time. then the thermostat opens and the process repeats. By removing the thermostat you will either have the bike too hot or too cold. Most of the time it would be too hot unless you are in the snow.

above in orange you lost me.....
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:54 AM   #2177
ABYSS
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IF you are happy

Quote:
Originally Posted by team ftb View Post
Posted this in the 525 thread and thought I'd post it here for the 500 collectives opinion. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Gents - I've been riding and enjoying my 525 for many years now. Got about 560+ hours on the gal now and she's fully sorted and set-up perfectly for me and my riding style.


2005 525 EXC:


Motor

*20 hours on new 570 piston and cylinder and rebuilt DJH head with +1 KW valves
*100 hours on rebuilt and balanced crank w/Annular bearings
*all bearings and gaskets and final drive shaft replaced
* TT stator and lightened flywheel
*SX exhaust
*new Hinson Clutch hub coming ion the mail


Chassis


*Sprung and valved for me by KTM suspension shootout winner. SKF seals.
* 17 degree Topar triple clamps
*2010 complete forks available if I need them


Extras


Clarke tank
Fan kit
HT oil cooler
CRT
Hi flow water pump
TT kickstand
Scotts SS oil filter
Cycra handguards
KTM hardparts Skid plate
P3 header protection
Scotts sterring stabilizer
Baja Designs Squadron lED lighting



During its last outing.









This bike is used primarily for multi day/ multi week long off road rides throughout Thailand, Lao, and Cambodia. I also outfit it with a complete SM set-up, radial brakes etc for fun at the go kart tracks and thrashing the canyons.


My question is will this bike last a few more years or is it time to get the 500? Small things like electrics getting corroded are starting to appear and my concerns are am I vulnerable to components failing that I will not expect due to the hours on the bike. Ie Gearset failures, oil pump gears, blah blah. You know things you don't think about wearing out but may fail over time. Is this a rational concern? Has anybody had failures such as these?


I live and ride where I need to trust my bike absolutely. The 500 is an unknown but realistically the only thing I fear on the engine is the FI.


The suspension and brakes on the 500 will be better but not sure about the motor compared to my 570. The 500 will flick side to side easier through tree's but since I'm usually carrying 25 pounds of gear strapped to the bike will it be enough benefit for me to notice it once loaded up?


Curious on your thoughts.
with the bike why get rid of it. Provided you have maintained it well worst case a completely redone motor and you are back to sqaure 1.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:51 PM   #2178
buelless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post

the purpose of the thermostat is to shut off the coolant flow for two reasons the first is to get or keep the engine temp up to where it is hot enough to efficiantly function, However that is only half the equasion withthe flow stopped the coolant in the radatior is not cycling and that cools it down much more than it woudl if you had it flwoing all the time. then the thermostat opens and the process repeats. By removing the thermostat you will either have the bike too hot or too cold. Most of the time it would be too hot unless you are in the snow.

.
most of these type t'stats modulate from closed to open over a small temp range. so as the fluid temp rises above the t'stats lower temp, the t'stat opens more to maintain the fluid within this narrow temp range. if the cooling system is engineered correctly, the t'stat will rarely open completely as the next thing that happens is the fluid overheats. removing the t'stat will usually result in the fluid running too cool unless the cooling system is undersized. just my 0.02....
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:09 PM   #2179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buelless View Post
most of these type t'stats modulate from closed to open over a small temp range. so as the fluid temp rises above the t'stats lower temp, the t'stat opens more to maintain the fluid within this narrow temp range. if the cooling system is engineered correctly, the t'stat will rarely open completely as the next thing that happens is the fluid overheats. removing the t'stat will usually result in the fluid running too cool unless the cooling system is undersized. just my 0.02....
Again if the thermostat was such an important piece for the engine to function properly, the race bikes would come with them. However they do not. Therefore, the only plausible explanation for a thermostat is to meet the green sticker requirement. In my opinion, the thermostat makes the bike run hot which makes it run hot and decreases hp. Which thereby decreases emissions in theory, or enough to make the EPA happy.

Either way, a GM engine in a car runs at 210 degrees, mostly 180-190 degrees happily. It also gets used by Indmar in a Malibu boat and runs at 160 degrees, mostly 140-150 happily. So if it can run at both temperature ranges, why can't a KTM?

I think the KTM will run fine with or without a thermostat. All I know is my bike felt hot, boiled out the overflow and made the fan turn on constantly until I removed the t'stat and put in engine ice.
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Old 08-21-2012, 07:23 PM   #2180
SoilSampleDave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
please pardon my poor wording for the following.

the purpose of the thermostat is to shut off the coolant flow for two reasons the first is to get or keep the engine temp up to where it is hot enough to efficiantly function, However that is only half the equasion withthe flow stopped the coolant in the radatior is not cycling and that cools it down much more than it woudl if you had it flwoing all the time. then the thermostat opens and the process repeats. By removing the thermostat you will either have the bike too hot or too cold. Most of the time it would be too hot unless you are in the snow.

above in orange you lost me.....
I don't think what you are saying is correct about the thermostat stopping the flow makes it cool better because the water in the radiator is not cycling. That would only make sense if the pump was capable of pushing water through the radiator so fast it couldn't transfer heat effectively. Think about it; if what you are saying is correct, when you are under max load and ambient temperature (needing max cooling), your thermostat should be rapidly cycling between open and closed, which it surely does not. They open and close nice and slow. I'm sure you have boiled one on the stove to make sure it works before installing? Race bikes would have little electrically operated thermostat valves, like the electric operated powervalve on some two strokes, snapping back and forth between open and closed in the search for max cooling so they could shrink the radiator. But they don't.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:18 PM   #2181
team ftb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ABYSS View Post
with the bike why get rid of it. Provided you have maintained it well worst case a completely redone motor and you are back to square 1.

I'm wondering if despite my tweeks to the bike, it's still basically 8 year old technology and if the 500 would provide any more of a satisfying platform to do my style of rides. Or am I just the neighbor peeking over the fence and coveting the sexy gal next door all the while having the perfect gal already at home.

My biggest complaint (in order of importance) about my reworked 525:

Weight - Its a porky bike but on the scales the 500 is not 250cc weight wise either.
Handling -The 525 feels a large bike to swing through bush and corners. Not sure if a 500 though with my GL hanging off the back would make the realized lighter weight of the 8 pound reduction in the motor weight, and better handling of the 500 a moot point or not.

Risks with the 500 are its a relatively new platform and surely to have some teething problems. Easy enough to deal with in the states but more of a pain in the arse if it dies in the bush when I'm alone riding by myself in a country I don't speak the language and there are no parts or tech people to assist. Realistically though the only potential concern I have with the 500 is the FI delivery system.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:41 PM   #2182
Mudguts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team ftb View Post
I'm wondering if despite my tweeks to the bike, it's still basically 8 year old technology and if the 500 would provide any more of a satisfying platform to do my style of rides. Or am I just the neighbor peeking over the fence and coveting the sexy gal next door all the while having the perfect gal already at home.

My biggest complaint (in order of importance) about my reworked 525:

Weight - Its a porky bike but on the scales the 500 is not 250cc weight wise either.
Handling -The 525 feels a large bike to swing through bush and corners. Not sure if a 500 though with my GL hanging off the back would make the realized lighter weight of the 8 pound reduction in the motor weight, and better handling of the 500 a moot point or not.

Risks with the 500 are its a relatively new platform and surely to have some teething problems. Easy enough to deal with in the states but more of a pain in the arse if it dies in the bush when I'm alone riding by myself in a country I don't speak the language and there are no parts or tech people to assist. Realistically though the only potential concern I have with the 500 is the FI delivery system.

Thanks in advance.


I recommend you ride the new 500 they really are so much different from the RFS platform so smooth excellent suspension out of the box handles like a dream I have not ridern my 690 in twelve months and I love my 690 as a all rounder and from having owned 520, and 3 525's I think you will be sold , the Fi system is so much better then the 690 which I know left you with bad taste ,
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Old 08-22-2012, 05:01 AM   #2183
Vico1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team ftb View Post
Risks with the 500 are its a relatively new platform and surely to have some teething problems. Easy enough to deal with in the states but more of a pain in the arse if it dies in the bush when I'm alone riding by myself in a country I don't speak the language and there are no parts or tech people to assist. Realistically though the only potential concern I have with the 500 is the FI delivery system.

Thanks in advance.
My two cents...

I rode RFSs for years and then switched to 08 530exc... rode that for four years and liked it but not loved it.
Then one day a rode the 5hunny and there was no going back... its just that much FUN to ride.

Truth, I like my sons 525 RFS XC better than the 530exc, but neither compare to the 5hunny...

Ive got almost 2k on my 2012 with no issues except the 10M filter which is easy to fix. If you look at mine it starts and runs perfectly (JH Turner helps)...

The first year has a few pains but well worth it. It revived my desire to ride... its that good...at least for me..

BTW dont let the weight numbers fool you. I have no idea of actaul weight bu "preceived" weight is much less"...

I am temped to ride Eastern Enduros with this thing...
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:22 AM   #2184
Stu
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Joined: Feb 2004
Location: Eastern YahooLand
Oddometer: 894
Reliability

FTB,

I would agree with Vico1. The only issue with the 500 EXC is contamination of the FI nozzle. Just install a Golan mini 5/16" 10 micron filter and toss the tiny 20 micron filter KTM puts in the '13s. The Golan is rugged, has a very large filtering surface and is field serviceable. There were some reports of pinched water pump seals that leaked. Re-installing the seal fixed it. Dealer prep is incomplete. My 500 came with a finger tight only bolt for the mesh filter on the bottom of the engine. ("Why is this new bike leaking oil?" Duh.)

The advantages over the 570 or my old RFS 565: a few lbs lighter but a much lighter feel riding it, it now holds 1.5 liters of oil compared to the 1.2 on the stock RFS, there is only one filter instead of two, service is easier to do (checking valves may come down to a 15 minute job with the new setup) and the suspension is really smooth. I would pop the valve adjustment shims out, measure them and then buy a few larger shims to take with you for potential adjustment. This might not be necessary since valve adjustments seem to be rare. The only disadvantage is the FI mapping. My 500 flames out on uphills below about 1,500 rpm whereas the 565 pulls down to about 500 rpm. I am hoping the JD Jetting mapping tool will fix this. Vico1 mentioned that it did so I will get one and try it.

I did take 1" out of the suspension and it works with my 29" inseam. You could probably take 1.5" out and still have the handling you would be paying for with the new 500. Would I recommend this bike to you over your very well sorted out 570? Yes. However, you KNOW the RFS engines are very reliable and I would trust your bike for years yet. You could just clean the electrical contacts, put dielectric grease on them, just worry about your wheel bearings in all the muck you ride in and head out for more incredible adventures.

Stu
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:31 AM   #2185
Stu
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Enduros

"I am temped to ride Eastern Enduros with this thing... "

Vico1, I am decidedly not tempted to ride any tight, muddy races with my 500. I'd take my '12 300 XC-W any day. It is far more enjoyable in tight woods, far quicker for faster lap times, light enough that I can pick it up and walk with it, a feathery feeling suspension that makes me think I am 17 again (not...I'm 55 years past that age), has a simple motor with a great center of gravity unlike any 4T and is stone reliable. For this kind of riding the 300 is the giggles.

Stu
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Old 08-22-2012, 06:47 AM   #2186
Stu
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Reliability, Continued

Hey, guys, this was just posted on KTMTalk:

"Ok here is a solid testsament to this 500 engine. As you can see in my sig, i am no stranger to orange.
198.2 hours since new. Raced alot of enduros, some h/s and trail rode the crap out of this thing. I ride A class and have for years.

I took engine apart due to high hours, not a real drivability issue. Well here is what i found -
Compression Ring gap was .018" or .437 mm. That is half the 1mm spec.
Cam looks like brand new, no scuffs, scars or wear indications
Cross hatch still perfect in bore, no scuffs or ring ridge
No oil build up on rear of intake valves, no build up of carbon on exhaust
Piston looks like it has some carbon on domes, skirt showing some scuffs at base on front and rear perpendicular to wrist pin
AMAZING.
i have never even caught metallic or other debris on either of the screens or magnet.

I am impressed. Really - impressed"

Comments that followed this post included observations that KTM has really become better at manufacturing since the RFS engine era.

Stu
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Old 08-22-2012, 07:34 AM   #2187
ABYSS
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Where to being...

Quote:
Originally Posted by buelless View Post
most of these type t'stats modulate from closed to open over a small temp range. so as the fluid temp rises above the t'stats lower temp, the t'stat opens more to maintain the fluid within this narrow temp range. if the cooling system is engineered correctly, the t'stat will rarely open completely as the next thing that happens is the fluid overheats. removing the t'stat will usually result in the fluid running too cool unless the cooling system is undersized. just my 0.02....
You are correct the opeing and closing keep the engine at a constant tempature. But the frequency of cycling is dependant on the enviorment the engine is in and whiel the engineering component helps it is not the whoel puzzle. If you are in the middle of the desert at high noon it is goign to get hotter than up in the mountains in snow and crossing cold streams. I agree in cooler enviorments removing the T-stat will make the bike run too cool but it hot enviorments the bke will run hot and boil over . Ive seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethedesert View Post
Again if the thermostat was such an important piece for the engine to function properly, the race bikes would come with them. However they do not. Therefore, the only plausible explanation for a thermostat is to meet the green sticker requirement. In my opinion, the thermostat makes the bike run hot which makes it run hot and decreases hp. Which thereby decreases emissions in theory, or enough to make the EPA happy.

Either way, a GM engine in a car runs at 210 degrees, mostly 180-190 degrees happily. It also gets used by Indmar in a Malibu boat and runs at 160 degrees, mostly 140-150 happily. So if it can run at both temperature ranges, why can't a KTM?

I think the KTM will run fine with or without a thermostat. All I know is my bike felt hot, boiled out the overflow and made the fan turn on constantly until I removed the t'stat and put in engine ice.
Race bikes dont have thermostats because the are ridden hard for short periods of time they are not designed to run for long periods. You guys and the Green sticker conspiracy theory need to relax the USA is not the only place the uses thermostats.Thermostats have bne around alot longer that the any of the GREEN knitwhits have.

Your refrence to cars and boats are incomplete. Cars and boats are two different enviorments and are tuned completely differently. Boats have thermostats if they didnt and were an open system they would have 80 digree lake water running threw them and the boats would have all sorts of issues.

While I persoally dont think removing the thermostat is a good idea I do beleive that putting in a lower temp one would be a benifical move. If you go over to ORANGE CRUSH and look aroud the LC-8 guys are doing just that and getting good results. I agree compete with the ENGINE ICE. when I converted my SE and SMT both bikes had operting temps drop by about 5 digrees. Form what I undersand the engine ice trasnfers/release heat more eficantly than Ethyl Glycol.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SoilSampleDave View Post
I don't think what you are saying is correct about the thermostat stopping the flow makes it cool better because the water in the radiator is not cycling. That would only make sense if the pump was capable of pushing water through the radiator so fast it couldn't transfer heat effectively. Think about it; if what you are saying is correct, when you are under max load and ambient temperature (needing max cooling), your thermostat should be rapidly cycling between open and closed, which it surely does not. They open and close nice and slow. I'm sure you have boiled one on the stove to make sure it works before installing? Race bikes would have little electrically operated thermostat valves, like the electric operated powervalve on some two strokes, snapping back and forth between open and closed in the search for max cooling so they could shrink the radiator. But they don't.

You have a right to your opinion sir and I respect that, but what I said is correct. When the flow of coolant is stopped by the thermostat being closed the constant air flowinging threw the radiator over the same staginet mass of coolant which cools it down. ( Kind of like blowing on a cup of soup tp cool it down) Intern the coolant in the engine itself is heating up and when it does to the point of the T-stat opening the then engine temp drops and the rad temp goes up and when that happens the T-stat closes and the cycle starts over again.
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Old 08-22-2012, 08:37 AM   #2188
ABYSS
KTM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by team ftb View Post
I'm wondering if despite my tweeks to the bike, it's still basically 8 year old technology and if the 500 would provide any more of a satisfying platform to do my style of rides. Or am I just the neighbor peeking over the fence and coveting the sexy gal next door all the while having the perfect gal already at home.

My biggest complaint (in order of importance) about my reworked 525:

Weight - Its a porky bike but on the scales the 500 is not 250cc weight wise either.
Handling -The 525 feels a large bike to swing through bush and corners. Not sure if a 500 though with my GL hanging off the back would make the realized lighter weight of the 8 pound reduction in the motor weight, and better handling of the 500 a moot point or not.

Risks with the 500 are its a relatively new platform and surely to have some teething problems. Easy enough to deal with in the states but more of a pain in the arse if it dies in the bush when I'm alone riding by myself in a country I don't speak the language and there are no parts or tech people to assist. Realistically though the only potential concern I have with the 500 is the FI delivery system.

Thanks in advance.
You are correct the tech is 8 years older but the only thing I consider as a substancial change is the FI. Weight wise is neledgeable.You can shave 8 pounds pretty easily with a shoria battery and a titanium exhuast.

Unlike you I came from a considerabley different platform I was ridng a blue whale (KTM 950 SE 400 + lbs.) and upgraded to a Mako shark (KTM 500 XCW)! I am a long life believer of carbs and love them BUT when I went to the new bike FI was all that was availabe in new condition. I was not looking forward to it but kept an open mind. I have to admit the FI is nice and the elevation changes are no longer an issue.


The FI unit itself is mostly mechanical with ECU aided control. If this setup was "Flybywire" like new cars are I wouldnt have anyting to do with it. From what I have heard and read these FI setups have been on Husaberg for a couple years so its not entirely new.

Unlike carbs there are no jets to clog mess with or change out. I carry a spare fuel injector with me for a worst case scenerio. But if you rip ouf the factory filters and install a good 10 micron the injector clogging shouldnt be an issue.

Teething wise there really hasnt been much. There was one recall on the lifters being in upside down and one for the fuel line other than that it has been pretty smooth. The only other issue I have seen are the guys that have taken all filters out and they wonder why that start having fuel delivery problems.

Back to what you currently have though. If you are happy with your bike then keep it if your not then dont. I would guess you know your bike cold and aything that should arrise you already new it was about to happen. Even if you enevtually redo the whole motor if its what you are happy with then quit looking at the girl in thong in the next yard and go back to your DD vixen and enjoy her!

To me personally that is the most valuable thing there is is to know my equipment and its personality.

My only reason for my change was bike weight. The SE is a MONSTER!!! at 100 HP there is no feeling better that being on the side of a moutnain when others are struggling to find the power to go on and you drop it into second and fly past them smiling all the way . BUT that is a double endge sword becasue late int he day the bike starts getting tired and starts wanting to take naps after the third time it gets really heavy and OLD!

The XCW is unique for me. It is half the weight and I am guessing half the horse power. I have Akra TI system on it and it sounds like half my SE. I love it and power to weight it is equal or better than my SE was so I am good ALL DAY LONG!!!

I dont expect to ever make a change now that I have the right tool for the job. Parts availability permitting the way I maintain my things it will outlast my life time.
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Old 08-22-2012, 01:03 PM   #2189
SteveO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stu View Post
Hey, guys, this was just posted on KTMTalk:

"Ok here is a solid testsament to this 500 engine. As you can see in my sig, i am no stranger to orange.
198.2 hours since new. Raced alot of enduros, some h/s and trail rode the crap out of this thing. I ride A class and have for years.

I took engine apart due to high hours, not a real drivability issue. Well here is what i found -
Compression Ring gap was .018" or .437 mm. That is half the 1mm spec.
Cam looks like brand new, no scuffs, scars or wear indications
Cross hatch still perfect in bore, no scuffs or ring ridge
No oil build up on rear of intake valves, no build up of carbon on exhaust
Piston looks like it has some carbon on domes, skirt showing some scuffs at base on front and rear perpendicular to wrist pin
AMAZING.
i have never even caught metallic or other debris on either of the screens or magnet.

I am impressed. Really - impressed"

Comments that followed this post included observations that KTM has really become better at manufacturing since the RFS engine era.

Stu


Nice.....

Thanks Stu for the info. Makes me feel better about my decision to buy this 500.

As well, I've not had any issues with my bike. I've really been enjoying it, and it has really helped me to step up my speed and fun-factor
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Old 08-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #2190
Vico1
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Oil changes

I too have notice almost NO metal in the oil screens or plug... That seems to be a good thing.

With this 5hunny love fest going on here I might offer one bad thing about this bike...

It is ADDICTIVE!

Tell me you dont think about it all the time!
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I don't always ride street bikes, but when I do I prefer VStroms
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