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Old 06-19-2012, 04:20 PM   #1
sendler OP
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Vetter fuel economy challenges 2012

Craig Vetter is organizing fuel economy challenges. The goal is 100 mpgUS, 70 mph into any head wind, sitting upright and comfortable, and carrying four bags of groceries (or all your camping gear and clothing for a cross country tour). The next one is at the AMA Vintage Days, Mid Ohio, USA, July 20th. See you there.
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http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/470...PG%20Main.html
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:50 AM   #2
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Craig and Allen among others will be there with their newest nose design and the Perinthians broke 130 mpg last year with a traditional head forward landspeed fairing.
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Maybe someday soon one of the major bike makers will sell us something like this for our cross country trips.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:57 AM   #3
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The top photo is a pre gen Ninja250 and the other is a Honda Helix scooter. They are running longer gearing but the engines are stock. The Ninja is regularly breaking 100 mpgUS which is an accomplishment at that speed because Craig insists on hammering the bikes at 10 mph over the speed limit on the super highway to weed out any whimpy competition vehicles. He wants real cross country worthy vehicles to result from these contests. They must do 70 mph into a 30 mph head wind. A top speed of 100 mph air speed in other words.
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Old 06-23-2012, 08:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Craig and Allen among others will be there with their newest nose design and the Perinthians broke 130 mpg last year with a traditional head forward landspeed fairing.
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Maybe someday soon one of the major bike makers will sell us something like this for our cross country trips.
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There's an old air-cooled Beemer around here with a fairing like that--and a matching trailer. Has a definite "home brew" feeling to it, too. Hopefully I can catch a pic next time.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:54 AM   #5
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Yes, we call it a...CAR!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Craig and Allen among others will be there with their newest nose design and the Perinthians broke 130 mpg last year with a traditional head forward land

speed fairing.
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Maybe someday soon one of the major bike makers will sell us something like this for our cross country trips.
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:44 AM   #6
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Yes, we call it a...CAR!!!!
There is no car (or other motorcycle) that can even come close to 100 mpgUS at 100 mph.
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Old 06-28-2012, 01:43 PM   #7
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There is no car (or other motorcycle) that can even come close to 100 mpgUS at 100 mph.
College students are building vehicles that do over 1000 mpg.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_Sup...ge_Competition

Now, the rules are different, and the speeds are much lower (like 20 mph), but nonetheless. Let's not get ourselves thinking that these homebuilts are somehow cutting edge technology.

Furthermore, there are cars that do 40-50 mpg or better on the highway. They also seat 2 people at minimum, and carry stuff. That's similar fuel performance, if you have 2 people on board, to a 100 mpg motorcycle.
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Old 06-28-2012, 03:11 PM   #8
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College students are building vehicles that do over 1000 mpg.
Completely impractical competition vehicles that cannot travel with real traffic. Vetter did that in 1980 with motorcycles that you crawled into head first and got 470 mpgUS. These new streamliners are cross country capable and keep you and all your stuff warm and dry. Three people in a car can beat them on mpg per person but I don't bring anyone to work with me when I go. For a solo rider, a streamlined 250 is a super cheap and fuel efficient commuter/ cross country tourer.

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Old 06-29-2012, 01:31 PM   #9
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There is no car (or other motorcycle) that can even come close to 100 mpgUS at 100 mph.
Aside from the technical challenges, there's another very good reason for this: absolute fuel usage decreases non-linearly as fuel economy improves.

This means that there's a sweet spot for fuel economy where diminishing returns sets in with a vengeance, and there's almost no value in pushing beyond this. This sweet spot happens to be around 50MPG.

With $5/gal gas, to drive 3,000 miles across the US at 50MPG costs $300. At 100MPG it costs $150. Jumping to 470 mpg drops it to $32.

To most people, the savings would not be worth it.

I certainly have no interest in "touring" on those bikes, when the incremental cost for something far more fun and capable that gets ~50 mpg is so low; especially relative to the other costs inherent in motorcycling.
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Old 06-29-2012, 02:33 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by gmiguy View Post
Aside from the technical challenges, there's another very good reason for this: absolute fuel usage decreases non-linearly as fuel economy improves.

This means that there's a sweet spot for fuel economy where diminishing returns sets in with a vengeance, and there's almost no value in pushing beyond this. This sweet spot happens to be around 50MPG.

With $5/gal gas, to drive 3,000 miles across the US at 50MPG costs $300. At 100MPG it costs $150. Jumping to 470 mpg drops it to $32.

To most people, the savings would not be worth it.

I certainly have no interest in "touring" on those bikes, when the incremental cost for something far more fun and capable that gets ~50 mpg is so low; especially relative to the other costs inherent in motorcycling.
That's a feel good way of looking at it. The fact is if you are using half as much gas, you are using half as much gas. Save some for later. It's not about saving money. I have plenty of money. It's also about letting off half as much carbon.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Completely impractical competition vehicles that cannot travel with real traffic. Vetter did that in 1980 with motorcycles that you crawled into head first and got 470 mpgUS. These new streamliners are cross country capable and keep you and all your stuff warm and dry. Three people in a car can beat them on mpg per person but I don't bring anyone to work with me when I go. For a solo rider, a streamlined 250 is a super cheap and fuel efficient commuter/ cross country tourer.
You're missing the point.

You're acting like Vetter is on some bleeding edge of technology. He's just bolting a hideous fender onto an 80's technology carb'd motorcycle and getting 100 mpg.

The SAE vehicles are not directly applicable to real-world usage, but neither are Vetter's. Are you going to tell me that you could turn around and sell that on the open market? No chance. The point is that they are demonstrating a MUCH more sophisticated level of technology; if they can get 1000-2000 mpg with their given constraints, they could do much better than these bikes when modified to be "road ready." Note that nobody has done this. Why? Because there isn't a market for a lame 200 mpg streamliner.

Why is this in racing, anyway? Best I can tell, last year 8 guys showed up for this "challenge." http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/201...l-results.html Hell, 3 out of 8 got less than 60 mpg.
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Old 07-01-2012, 09:14 AM   #12
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That's a feel good way of looking at it. The fact is if you are using half as much gas, you are using half as much gas. Save some for later. It's not about saving money. I have plenty of money. It's also about letting off half as much carbon.
The money you save is proportional to the gas you save.

If you go from using 1000 gallons a year to 500, that's a big deal. If you go from using 10 to using 5, that simply doesn't really matter.

Gas and money are not really different things in this context. The money you save is the gas you save, and vice-versa.
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Old 07-01-2012, 10:11 AM   #13
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The future needs an attitude adjustment

When you are one step ahead of the game you are an innovator. Two steps ahead, you are nuts. Until we take a step. Vetter is proving a concept by taking cheap and plentiful used bikes and doubling the fuel economy just by making home made aerodynamics and fitting longer gears. The Ninja is up to 110 mpgUS in conditions that would see a V-Strom 650 getting 45. And the Ninja is not the best starting point with it's high revving and cammy super sport engine. These are not production vehicles. These are cheap, proof of concept prototypes. If Honda made a purpose built streamliner, it would get 200 mpgUS at 50 mph and have a top speed of 100 mph and sell for $8,000.
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The side benefits of streamlining are obvious. They can carry much more gear and luggage than an adventure bike and stay much warmer and drier and slice through the wind better in bad weather. A group is riding from northern California to the track at Mid Ohio next week. You are welcome to tag along if you think you can keep up.
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Your grandkids will be begging for something like this when carbon emission taxes push gas to $20/ gallon. We need to start learning how to be more fuel efficient now so we don't have to suddenly make a big change and get caught with nothing to fall back on.
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If you really only use 10 gallons of gas per year and don't want to cut back to 5, then good for you. This discussion has nothing to do with you. The USA is a big country and I know many people that use 20 gallons per week.
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http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/...ment/#more-646
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Fossil fuel will be barely a blip on the the screen of human history.
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Old 07-01-2012, 11:35 AM   #14
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If Honda made a purpose built streamliner, it would get 200 mpgUS at 50 mph and have a top speed of 100 mph and sell for $8,000.
And nobody but you (and 8 other guys) would buy it.

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You are welcome to tag along if you think you can keep up.
I bet that rickety Ninja 250 is super fast, I'm not sure I would be able to keep up with you guys. Not to mention the '75 gold wing. Of all things, you're worried people can't keep up?

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Your grandkids will be begging for something like this when carbon emission taxes push gas to $20/ gallon. We need to start learning how to be more fuel efficient now so we don't have to suddenly make a big change and get caught with nothing to fall back on.
Sure thing. We do need to. And we will, as the price of gasoline gradually increases, and we transition into other types of technologies.
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Quote:
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/12/the-future-needs-an-attitude-adjustment/#more-646
I didn't read the whole thing, but frankly, I'm not really that interested in reading pages of some guy's personal philosophy.
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Old 07-01-2012, 01:30 PM   #15
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[QUOTE=kpt4321;19033500]And nobody but you (and 8 other guys) would buy it.{/QUOTE]
True. Most people are selfish or don't know any better and still think a 24 mpgUS SUV is pretty good. That's why Vetter is trying to raise awareness that even 20 year old technology is capable of doing much better if we just try. A new streamliner design from Honda could double again the results he is getting with his home made bikes.



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I bet that rickety Ninja 250 is super fast, I'm not sure I would be able to keep up with you guys.
It's not just about top speed but also carrying enough stuff for a cross country trip and not getting frozen and blown into the weeds the first thunderstorm you have to ride through.
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Not to mention the '75 gold wing. Of all things, you're worried people can't keep up?
Craig has no control over who shows up to ride. It is an open invitation for any vehicle to have their real world fuel economy verified. Even you would be welcome. Too bad most motorcycles are such parachutes that they can't break 60 mpg. My Honda Insight used to get 63 before it hit 200,000 miles and started to dip.

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Sure thing. We do need to. And we will, as the price of gasoline gradually increases, and we transition into other types of technologies.
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[URL="http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/12/the-future-needs-an-attitude-adjustment/#more-646"]

I didn't read the whole thing, but frankly, I'm not really that interested in reading pages of some guy's personal philosophy.
Why should anyone alive today care what will happen in 200 years. It ain't gonna be pretty if we don't start trying to change now.
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