ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Riding > Racing
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-04-2012, 09:46 PM   #796
theantipaul
Reforming Neandertal
 
theantipaul's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2008
Location: Niwot
Oddometer: 1,072
The issue of rider safety has pretty much eluded me, so when Mudguts & Armageddon started talking break away devices, I tried to apply it to the tower. With the HDPE side plates you'd have to use more then 2 bolts to keep the RB mount from moving since the HDPE is so slick, then you'd need more force to overcome the fasteners, sheer the plastic and have it pivot out of the way when your body moves over the bars dynamically.



That piece was 3/16" thick with a .090 wall around the mounting bolt, bolts up marginally and shears pretty easy. That will most likely need some tweaking, but seems plausible as a solution without having components separated from the tower. Easily fixed on the trail and I think dirt cheap insurance

Then decided to take the rest to failure with a 5lb deadblow mallet, both pieces are 1/4" HDPE the white is natural, the black is marine grade. I now have no doubt that if the Nav components are taking the brunt of the impact they will move to an extent, absorbing and dissipating the impact and spring back to an extent. How much? Depends on the impact.






The results, after repeated blows continuing to the edges of the supports, the HDPE shears out the bolts and deforms plastically.



Thoughts?
__________________
degarate@highwaydirtbikes.com

Man lived, Man suffered, Man died

theantipaul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 09:56 PM   #797
wrk2surf OP
on the gas or brakes
 
wrk2surf's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2007
Location: THE exact center of California/Bass lake/Yosemite
Oddometer: 6,219
As someone said earlier, many riders including Meoni have been injured or killed by towers.. I know since riding with mine i have always had a chest protector but have slammed it a couple of times on slow speed.. that is not what im worried about my concern is a high speed get off over 50/60 mph where it seems this idea would really do the trick as long as you had a spare or two.. to keep in the rally!

on top of it all im sure it is much more vibration resistant..

I would use it!

BTW.. I sure wished I lived close to your shop!
__________________
Thanks for the 2014 support:BELL HELMETS, SCOTT USA, Kriega USA, Carbon-pro.com, GPR stabilzers, Renazco Racing, Sidi/Motonation, Masters paint and body, Magura , motolab , Tripy GPS, Loctite and Dunlop tires .
wrk2surf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 10:28 PM   #798
jesusgatos
fishing with dynamite
 
jesusgatos's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: on the road
Oddometer: 2,334
That's a great idea Paul, and think it's a winner if you refine the geometry (maybe move the pivot-point back so there's no chance that any kind of top-down impact could be inline with the pivot/bracket). Sorry, that might not be clear. What I'm trying to say is that if you move the pivot-point back, it'll be more likely to collapse under any kind of top-down impact.
__________________
GatosBros · Crux Studio · Trails Less Traveled
jesusgatos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 10:28 PM   #799
Gany
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, Au
Oddometer: 310
Nice work Paul! Love to see the equivalent video with aluminium uprights!

Are the holes less likely to shear with thicker spacers?

Wonder if the white piece or some other piece could be designed so that it moved rather than failed, without it moving under normal riding conditions? Picture something like the white piece that was a hook, so an impact would cause the bolt to force out of the hook allowing the tower to move hopefully without destroying the white piece. You could then either unbolt or force it back into the hook and keep going? Or something like a string of holes joined together but where the holes touch its say half the thickness of the bolt so the plastic has to compress to allow the bolt past it.

Anyhow, food for thought.

I was going to run with 10mm thick HDPE but based on your testing it seems ~6mm/ 1/4" will hold up just fine!

Keep it coming!!
Gany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 10:30 PM   #800
jesusgatos
fishing with dynamite
 
jesusgatos's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: on the road
Oddometer: 2,334
Hard to say without seeing a whole assembly, but also looks like you might be able to make the two main vertical sideplates shorter. The more compact you can make that part of the assembly, the better.
__________________
GatosBros · Crux Studio · Trails Less Traveled
jesusgatos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-04-2012, 11:08 PM   #801
tileman
Studly Adventurer
 
tileman's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne, OZ
Oddometer: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros Buck View Post
It will be simpler because of simpler needs. Nothing anybody here needs. I need something WIDER cause I want to put two 90 mm BI-LED lamps. Which means 100 mm in between.
I ran a similar width between side plates on mine. I made something similar to the JVO kit that J-mo used.

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/r...t/DSCF0156.jpg

1 centre spine for no better term and then spacers to get the width.
__________________
If ignorance is bliss, why aren´t more people happy?????
tileman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 12:53 AM   #802
640 Armageddon
-oo-
 
640 Armageddon's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Greece
Oddometer: 1,805
That is indeed a great idea Paul ! Thumbs up for the quick response to this safety issue . I have no experience in injuring myself in the bloody thing (and I hope I will never have ) but it is indeed a major issue.

I think the concept is pretty neat. Nylon bolts is another food for thought, I was going that way when the safety issue came up. A Nylon bolt is strong enough both in shear and in tension to hold the assembly but you can choose the correct size so that if the load exceeds a certain value the bolts fail in shear. You just then replace the bolts. An M5 for example will break in shear using almost 100 kgs so I think it is doable ... (An M6 breaks at 180 kg in shear so I think this would be for quite a heavy person ) In the design that I am using, there is a third adjusting bolt which I plan to use as a crample zone if I may say. You can see here what I mean, I put the video before but jsut for reference

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aavtn...3&feature=plcp


In all of the above, I think we have to take in to account the cabling. If anything breaks, for safety reasons, may be it is a good idea to make sure that the instruments auto-disconnect from the bike to prevent damage in the cables. It would not be nice for the tower to hang around from three/four cables when smashed around. In Paul's design this is not a problem but I am just mentioning it for other people who may go to the extreme of getting the tower of the bike Another idea (if you go to the extremes that is ... ) would be to put steel cables to hold the tower close to the bike in order not to load the cables. Much like they do in the F1 with the wheels so the wheel does not get apart from the car. Too complicated in my opinion

I dont know how all rally towers are attached, but I have a question. If the tower is only supported in one pivot point. Much like the one that you use to put the roadbook in the handlebars (sorry, I do not know if there is a name for it but I think you know what I am talking about). Even if you do not have a ''crample zone'' I think if you do not overtighten these bolts the thing will rotate upon impact. There is nothing to prevent it from doing so. Or am I missing something ? For sure it would be better to move out of the way but just questioning myself ....

The nice thing is that in almost any tower you can use materials to make it safer in case of impact with very little or no modification at all. It needs testing to get the tightening torques right so it slides, breaks etc with the correct load but that is why we are here

640 Armageddon screwed with this post 09-05-2012 at 01:13 AM
640 Armageddon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 01:40 AM   #803
DRjoe
Beastly Adventurer
 
DRjoe's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: Sunshine coast qld
Oddometer: 4,861
Looking good Joe, I like the mr plow sticker


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Watson View Post
Thanks for all the great comments everyone. I can't wait to see it finished and all stickered up!




Paul, I have no idea what you are talking about?? I have had the Zumo 550 now for over 4 years and it has been anything but fragile!! I absolutely LOVE my Zumo and would buy another one in a heartbeat.
DRjoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 01:52 AM   #804
tileman
Studly Adventurer
 
tileman's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Melbourne, OZ
Oddometer: 841
Quote:
Originally Posted by theantipaul View Post

The results, after repeated blows continuing to the edges of the supports, the HDPE shears out the bolts and deforms plastically.

Thoughts?
I would call this video a success. The tower coped quite well with repeated blows. Thinking sideways a bit are road books the same for both moto's, quads, cars etc? For now I shall assume so. In a car that for example is involved in a roll over the road book that should to solidly mounted won't cause a issue. On a moto the crash is quite different. Therefore is it an idea to try and machine out of solid of HDPE a road book holder? ( the outside container) Pretty easy stuff to machine, its engineering grade, another thought ready for comment/criticism
__________________
If ignorance is bliss, why aren´t more people happy?????

tileman screwed with this post 09-05-2012 at 03:46 AM
tileman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 02:38 AM   #805
Joe Watson
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joe Watson's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2008
Location: Sunshine Coast, Qld, Aus.
Oddometer: 1,028
Thanks! I thought you would like that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRjoe View Post
Looking good Joe, I like the mr plow sticker
Joe Watson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 05:15 AM   #806
crankshaft
Guns are for pussies
 
crankshaft's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: Burlingtron,VT
Oddometer: 13,974
Quote:
Originally Posted by jesusgatos View Post
Hard to say without seeing a whole assembly, but also looks like you might be able to make the two main vertical sideplates shorter. The more compact you can make that part of the assembly, the better.
It's actually pretty compact as it is, it is hard to two tell though without actually seeing it mounted in person. When I got the test model for the 690, I thought it looked big until it was mounted. weird huh

Looks good Paul, making good progress!
__________________
Just say'IN
crankshaft is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 07:25 AM   #807
Gany
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, Au
Oddometer: 310
Machine a solid roadbook holder or how about just vac form one?
Gany is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 08:03 AM   #808
640 Armageddon
-oo-
 
640 Armageddon's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2009
Location: Greece
Oddometer: 1,805
I guess the advantage of having an HDPE roadbook is only because it is cheaper. The flexibility is lost due to the geometry (an open box). So it will not give room (or not give as much as you would think) in order to try something like that. I would prefer the frame to take the blow and give away in case of an accident. Making the equipment itself flexible will not help as much.

A roadbook from composite materials will be lighter, you dont have the Aluminium welds as well but all in all it may be more expensive. touratech did not sell but then again Touratech did not sell well even with its Aluminium unit ...

The other thing that needs to be considered is that, let's say in Paul's design (because we have seen how it works, no offence Paul) say that the tower goes forward. That means that the fairing will most probable break and then the tower itself will be exposed. I am with safety here and I would prefer 1oo% to buy new equipment than to imprint my chest onto the roadbook but it needs some calculations so it does not break with blows that may not hurt you in the first place
640 Armageddon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 10:32 AM   #809
beechum1
Beastly Adventurer
 
beechum1's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Herlong, CA. Look it up, I'll wait.
Oddometer: 7,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
I guess the advantage of having an HDPE roadbook is only because it is cheaper. The flexibility is lost due to the geometry (an open box). So it will not give room (or not give as much as you would think) in order to try something like that. I would prefer the frame to take the blow and give away in case of an accident. Making the equipment itself flexible will not help as much.

A roadbook from composite materials will be lighter, you dont have the Aluminium welds as well but all in all it may be more expensive. touratech did not sell but then again Touratech did not sell well even with its Aluminium unit ...

The other thing that needs to be considered is that, let's say in Paul's design (because we have seen how it works, no offence Paul) say that the tower goes forward. That means that the fairing will most probable break and then the tower itself will be exposed. I am with safety here and I would prefer 1oo% to buy new equipment than to imprint my chest onto the roadbook but it needs some calculations so it does not break with blows that may not hurt you in the first place
fiberglass with a tricell or equive core would make for a great light bracket, and breakaway in a crash, but again... it'll break away and then how do you pack the front end out??
__________________
Rally Moto Kit /// Vendor Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dread Pendragon View Post
Mention to HogWild which way the wind is blowing where you're at, wait 20 minutes, and he'll post a picture of the intersection your at and a Google Earth route of how to get there.
beechum1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2012, 11:48 AM   #810
Gregg Wannabe
Just killing time
 
Gregg Wannabe's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2003
Location: La Jolla
Oddometer: 2,312
Safety

I too am concerned about the safety of the towers in an accident but even more so about the danger of sharp edged fairings. When I had my KTM 950 Adventure that small windscreen always made me nervous and I did bump it a few times while offroading. (Never had a bad crash) It looks like it could chop your head clean off. I bought some clear hose, split it lengthwise and put it on the edge of the windscreen like a bead. Blunted the sharp windscreen a bit and made me feel better.
Gregg Wannabe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 10:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014