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Old 09-21-2012, 04:27 AM   #916
wilkinsonk
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post



Let me know what you think...
D.

I love innovation as much as the next guy, especially when it streamlines a process. With this issue, after I get over my initial "hey that's cool" reaction I pondered a couple of things:

1. How much cost do you think this apparatus will add to to the cost of a road book? An F2R 750 is right at $200 less expensive than the MD, which RMS carries for $575. Do you think this could be produced and still kept at a price point comparable with the current ceiling?

2. The cartridge seems ideal if there is only one map roll for the day, but what happens if there is a second? I cannot see how you would carry another cartridge on your person.

Just a couple of thoughts,
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:39 AM   #917
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Cost is always an issue of course but value needs to be considered. If the price point was the same as the other current offerings, then it's a no brainer, especially if you could buy spare cartridges. The build your own concept is also interesting, because you would understand how it goes together and buying repair parts would be possible, since everything is bagged.
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Old 09-21-2012, 04:45 AM   #918
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Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post
Touratech piece of crap is what I also have at the moment... Scared to death when the gears will eat their teeth out ...

Appreciate the gesture and I accept the offer for the roadbook ...


А зачем так усложнять конструкцию !

Why so complicated design?
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Old 09-21-2012, 06:19 AM   #919
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Can anyone tell me the diameter of the biggest dakar roadbook when rolled up?


On the cartridge idea:

I like the idea of a quick change roadbook cartridge but I don't like the idea of having to carry it. Its easy enough to put your roadbook scroll in a nice zip lock bag and store it on your person...but a cartridge, even a compact one, starts getting bulky....and if it has hard parts its one more thing to cause damage to your body in a fall.

How about eliminating the entire catridge assembly and redisigning a roadbook to take a prerolled scroll (alreaded wound about an axle). So instead of dropping a frame work into the holder you pull your prewound scroll out, remove the old, drop the new one on, feed the end into the drive axle, and go from there...sort of like loading a new paper scroll into a plotter.

Expanding further you could use a design similar to the moose catridge style side loading route chart holder. The side plate of the routbook holder could come off...the road books could be wound unto some sort of splined axle tube which would engage with the drive axles. splines could be as simple as an oval shape or anything to maximize engagement.....the main risk I see with this idea is keeping them clean so that you don't bind...open to suggestions.

I will draw something up in a bit.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:18 AM   #920
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What I found time consuming and frustrating is loading the roadbook into the holder, that's the utility of a cassette style design.

Seth and Dimitri, if the spindles for loading the roadbook are identical and when you're finished with one and have the next prewound on a new spindle and just swap it out in the cassette, then you're there. The next roadbook is in your ziplock waiting, pop out the cassette, swap spindles, pop the cassette back in and go. How much time and frustration does that save?

That's my take on the value Dimitri's design brings, it's brilliant.

As far as complexity? Roadbook holders are already a bit complex, especially when it comes to loading. Show me something simpler that will do it better.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:25 AM   #921
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Originally Posted by Seth S View Post
How about eliminating the entire catridge assembly and redisigning a roadbook to take a prerolled scroll (alreaded wound about an axle). So instead of dropping a frame work into the holder you pull your prewound scroll out, remove the old, drop the new one on, feed the end into the drive axle, and go from there...sort of like loading a new paper scroll into a plotter.

Expanding further you could use a design similar to the moose catridge style side loading route chart holder. The side plate of the routbook holder could come off...the road books could be wound unto some sort of splined axle tube which would engage with the drive axles. splines could be as simple as an oval shape or anything to maximize engagement.....the main risk I see with this idea is keeping them clean so that you don't bind...open to suggestions.

I will draw something up in a bit.
Seth I think the beauty of this design is maintains the integrity of a the holder case and the drive mechanism without adding the weight, complexity and cost to support a new structure that would be side loading and sealed.
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Old 09-21-2012, 08:50 AM   #922
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[QUOTE=theantipaul;19646631]What I found time consuming and frustrating is loading the roadbook into the holder, that's the utility of a cassette style design.

QUOTE]


This is what I also find time consuming...winding the new scroll into the book...as well as attaching the tails together with halfway decent alignment.

On complexity: The F2R and the MD are reasonably simple on the complexity front. I guess I need to understand the catridge interface better to form a real opinion on swapping catridges in and out. I also need to see the end size of a cartridge to get an idea for what you have to carry. Keeping in mind that you carry enough junk as it is.

Paul...I think if you are saying that the above structure is more of an adapter that allows for prewound scrolls to be used then I think it is a fantastic idea. If that entire assembly is needed for each scroll then I don't like it as much.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:03 AM   #923
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A little further pondering/reflection....and I think the biggest challenge will be an easy to use and reliable method for disconnecting the drive axle from the existing roadbook drive mechanism.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:05 AM   #924
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Originally Posted by Seth S View Post
On complexity: The F2R and the MD are reasonably simple on the complexity front. I guess I need to understand the catridge interface better to form a real opinion on swapping catridges in and out. I also need to see the end size of a cartridge to get an idea for what you have to carry. Keeping in mind that you carry enough junk as it is.
What I'm thinking on the complexity side is that if you don't load these puppies right the first time, you're fighting them the rest of the day, a more fool proof loading of the roadbook will pay off greatly.

Quote:
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Paul...I think if you are saying that the above structure is more of an adapter that allows for prewound scrolls to be used then I think it is a fantastic idea. If that entire assembly is needed for each scroll then I don't like it as much.
This what I think Dimitri is getting at with the design and as far as added cost, look at the way he did that, just about everything in there you already need to make anyway for a holder, the only significant parts that add weight and cost would be the side plates of the cassette.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:07 AM   #925
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A little further pondering/reflection....and I think the biggest challenge will be an easy to use and reliable method for disconnecting the drive axle from the existing roadbook drive mechanism.
The way I understand the design the spring loaded knobs that stay captive would telescope into the cassette spools and have a drive cog or key to engage the motor. Dimitri?
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:14 AM   #926
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[

This what I think Dimitri is getting at with the design and as far as added cost, look at the way he did that, just about everything in there you already need to make anyway for a holder, the only significant parts that add weight and cost would be the side plates of the cassette.

I am not worried about the added cost. I am very aware of what it costs to design, build, and test anything. I am more concerned with limiting the chances for added failure/wear points and minimizing complexity. Both the F2R and MD units are nice as they use rubber bands for drive belts and are nice simple easy to service drive systems.
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:47 AM   #927
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I am not worried about the added cost. I am very aware of what it costs to design, build, and test anything. I am more concerned with limiting the chances for added failure/wear points and minimizing complexity. Both the F2R and MD units are nice as they use rubber bands for drive belts and are nice simple easy to service drive systems.
Having actually spent time trying to draw something up, I see this as pretty simple and elegant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 640 Armageddon View Post


The drive mechanism looks like an adaptation of the F2R and really doesn't look like it would add any additional failure or wear points into the system. In that sense it would have all the characteristics as far as strength and simplicity of the F2R case and drive and if you double up the O-rings for the drive it would put it in the F2R 750 class. The cassette might provide some failure concerns, but I'd take a shot at making it believing they could be overcome. The benefits I think would be substantial if it could be made to reliably work and honestly I don't see any real issues.

The way I understand it I'd say great job!
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Old 09-21-2012, 09:56 AM   #928
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Having actually spent time trying to draw something up, I see this as pretty simple and elegant.



The drive mechanism looks like an adaptation of the F2R and really doesn't look like it would add any additional failure or wear points into the system. In that sense it would have all the characteristics as far as strength and simplicity of the F2R case and drive and if you double up the O-rings for the drive it would put it in the F2R 750 class. The cassette might provide some failure concerns, but I'd take a shot at making it believing they could be overcome. The benefits I think would be substantial if it could be made to reliably work and honestly I don't see any real issues.

The way I understand it I'd say great job!
I agree. As I said I think the biggest challenge will be finding suitable couplers for the removable drive axles.
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Old 09-21-2012, 10:02 AM   #929
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Years ago when there was only the MD or the tourtech box I played around we a few design ideas for entirely new holders. I eventually got to a point where I eliminated one of the top guides to simplify loading.

Note...no ideas for drive at this point but this was the idea then:




My thought at the time was that you could easily wind the scroll on the roller towards the back of the picture...weave the paper over the one guide and then easily access the front roller. As the paper wound out it would gradually approach a parallel with the top cover.

I even started building a protoype but never finished it. It was small and simple and would only take a small diameter scroll.

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Old 09-21-2012, 03:10 PM   #930
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Wow, these are lots of posts to catch up but I will try and answer and discuss all the options here I went to Brodovitch's house and now I have two roll papers from Serres Rally 2011... Almost 700 kilometers and I will check their thickness later on ...

Quote:
1. How much cost do you think this apparatus will add to to the cost of a road book? An F2R 750 is right at $200 less expensive than the MD, which RMS carries for $575. Do you think this could be produced and still kept at a price point comparable with the current ceiling?
I will try and find the right suppliers to keep everything good quality and keep it as cheap as possible. Once you find the right people, then it will not cost that much. I am doing this as a hobby so I am not driven by money. I am driven by these discussions which are fruitfull and this brainstroming is what I like the most . It keeps me moving forward developing new ideas instead of sinking into the old ones... My opinion is that if I go to a store and I pay $600 for the MD, the next thing I will do is call the police to report a robbery so I want to price it as if I was buying it. The F2R is spot on pricewise. The unit we alltogether are developing? Have no idea.at the moment. But as soon as I have a prototype I the price will be the first thing to setup. If I produce 100 units and they cost $1000 each, chances are that by 2o2o I will still have them ... As I said I am a mechanical engineer and I am driven by mechanical things. Not money One thing I want to do, even if I pay the costs for it is to engrave all the nicknames that participated at this development. Lots of people helping develop something novel without arguing....


Quote:
2. The cartridge seems ideal if there is only one map roll for the day, but what happens if there is a second? I cannot see how you would carry another cartridge on your person.
This is one thing we discussed briefly with Brodovitch. Indeed a racer would not want to carry more things. We carry enough as it is. Even if you have a special box that the cartridge slides in, it will still be bulky. I try to fix as many things on the bike and avoid having things on me. After three days you cant feel your shoulders if you carry a heavy bag ... see below for solutions to this matter


Quote:
Cost is always an issue of course but value needs to be considered. If the price point was the same as the other current offerings, then it's a no brainer, especially if you could buy spare cartridges. The build your own concept is also interesting, because you would understand how it goes together and buying repair parts would be possible, since everything is bagged.
This is also what I think. The unit will have parts that you can buy from your local store. I know three kinds of people . The ones that will buy it and build it themselves, the ones who want it of the shelf and the ones who will modify it to make it even better .... So I plan to have an open source of spare parts,. You buy them from your local dealer... If you dont bother I will find it and sent it to you

What Paul and Seth say is good feedback and we will proceed to that end. Now this I will make tomorrow but it can be done without too much hassle. The idea therefore will be the following. You take the cartridge out. The road book is at its end. Then you take the axle with the paper out. The axle instead of having circlips at its ends will have pin clips. You pull them out and the shaft will be able to slide downwards. It needs some geometry changes but it can be done (if we include the toilet paper idea from the aerospace engineer -read below- then we are in business ) . Afterwards, you slide the new shaft and you put the cartridge the other way round (mirroring parts should not cause any manuf problems)
As Seth says the alignment of the paper is tricky and I agree with Paul who says that it is a complicated thing to do... (try to align paper in a 15 year old HP plotter now that is a pain in the a$$ . Brodovitch told me that you get used to it, but if I can make it easier then I ask myself ''why not? ''

As far as reliability is concerned I will choose high quality parts. I will try and find already proven motors from the RC or the robotics industry. The bearings should not cause any problems. The springs are not pushed to their limits so they will survive without problems. Pulleys with rubber bands are reliable enough from other designs so I see it going this way. The other features may add cost (IP factor, LEDs etc) but there is always the option of doing it after you buy it. So you can add things if you dont want to go for the full monty ... For the switch I would ask crankshaft but I am sure he will complicate things with a wireless system that has eye tracing facilities and the roadbook scrolls up and down in the direction that you look

Mechanically speaking the only thing that I would not want to fail is the motor. This not only sucks (pardon my French) but causes distraction and other things to the rider which I would not want. Trying to locate the smallest motor possible at the moment. This is a toughy but I will get there... The motor unit will be removable with quick release electric connections. Unbolt, take out, install the new one. All in all everything will be removable. That is why I want people to assemble it. So they know how to service it. Ok, may be racers want to install the paper, race the SS, install next special stage, race again, etc. But for me, I would prefer to know how things work so if I come across something, I fix it fast, and continue.

Since everything is assembled by you, you will be able to choose the parts. May be you do not want the large body because you only do local rallies with small roll papers. I dont have the chance to do dakar at the moment so small is ok for me May be have two bodies? Small and large... F2R has this option at the moment with the new model being larger than the old one...


What I want to make is a unit that people will care about and not and accessory that you buy and never care. That is why I want people to buy it and assemble it together. I still remember the feeling I had when I assembled my first Radio Control Car (Tamiya Monster Beetle ... aka Hump Backed ) .... If you can make your own leds or make other parts of your own, you will be free to buy just the pin clip and build the others . My plan was to make assembly instructions much like the ones you find in the RC cars ....

Quote:
The way I understand the design the spring loaded knobs that stay captive would telescope into the cassette spools and have a drive cog or key to engage the motor. Dimitri?
That is correct Paul. The knobs have the axle which passes through the pulleys and goes into the paper shafts. No fancy spline, just a key shape to transfer the rotation from the pulleys to the shaft. On my way home I though of another solution which I think it is more elegant and may be easier to manufacture. The mechanism will be positioned on the cartridge. You pull/push/dont know yet something (very simple spring loaded design) and you pull upwards the cartridge. i.e. the difference is that the knobs will stay still. Then you put it back in using the other way round moves ... Now I have a friend, mind you he is an aerospace engineer, and when I discussed the matter with him he suggested a mechanism like the one that we have the toilet paper This would be fun

In general, there are two options, either make it with complex geometries, inner circlips etc, and make everything expensive as hell since manufacturing will go sky high or make it simple to manufacture hence cheaper for the end user. I like the first, due to my complex nature but I tend to approach it in a more logical way because simpler is always better from my experience ...

Keep up the brainstorming, very valuable feedback from Paul, Seth and the others
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