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Old 10-20-2013, 04:15 AM   #9766
Emmbeedee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
Do the same test with the MAP screen open, not the Compass screen, and use Track Up.

Of course the compass display will not move with the Compass disabled, but the map will. A lot. Every time you come to a stop. I promise.
The video started with the map screen in Track up mode. And the compass on Auto. What made you think it was disabled?
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:37 AM   #9767
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Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
I have a buddy whose brother in law is a pilot and he says it's just glorified bus driving. You're not "navigating" as you fly.........
DING! DING! DING! WARNING! FLAMEOUT! FLAMEOUT!

Tsk, Tsk, MBD.

My 40 year piloting experience most certainly was NOT "glorified bus driving".

However, when GPS technology came along I did stop navigating in the old fashioned sense of plotting courses, headings, allowing for wind drift, compass deviation, etc. etc. on a sheet of paper. (at least when flying familiar routes.)

Like some other members it WAS my experience with Garmin's aviation units that lead to my frustration with the Montana before I learned most of it's quirks and made peace with it (a two year process that is still ongoing).

I use it in the dirt on the TW, on the pavement with the BMW, and in the truck on long trips through strange cities, and for the most part it does what I have learned to expect (NOT what I expected at first), and I am happy with it....except for the damn zoom buttons!

However, if I ever trade my F650GS in for an R1200GS I will probably splurge on a BMW Navigator/Zumo, mostly because then I can zoom with the left grip controller!
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:50 AM   #9768
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Well, based upon the previous discussions, I would speculate that there may be different sensors in some units. My current Montana does not have the high-noise problem that some do. My Compass is quite accurate in all configurations.

Having said that, this is my third Montana, my second Montana did demonstrate the high-noise problem (map-swing in TrackUp) and the Compass was so-so; usually off by 20-30deg.

I'm sure you all do, but don't forget to check the Additional Updates section in WebUpdater. It is there that you'll find GPS related updates.
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:06 PM   #9769
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Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
DING! DING! DING! WARNING! FLAMEOUT! FLAMEOUT!

Tsk, Tsk, MBD.

My 40 year piloting experience most certainly was NOT "glorified bus driving".
My apologies - I was just repeating what my friend who's an English Professor said; I trust his opinion of his brother in law. Maybe the BIL's the one who's a "GBD".

But anyone who comes in here and says they're ready to return something they only had one day, and doesn't say why, can expect a facetious response.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-20-2013, 04:54 PM   #9770
Rocky TFS
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But anyone who comes in here and says they're ready to return something they only had one day, and doesn't say why, can expect a facetious response.
Well, there's an old pilot's saying that goes "The bigger the plane, the bigger the ego."

Any Airbus 380 guys here?

PS, the bit about "glorified bus drivers" is an old pilot's in joke that started with: AIRBUS!!!
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:05 PM   #9771
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Seems like we need to keep it simple...

The complaint from many people is that the map swings when the compass is *DISABLED*. This is almost certainly due to GNSS position noise that other GPS's are much better at rejecting. As the term GNSS position noise would imply, it has *NOTHING* to do with the magnetic sensor (compass).
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:30 PM   #9772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky TFS View Post
DING! DING! DING! WARNING! FLAMEOUT! FLAMEOUT!

Tsk, Tsk, MBD.

My 40 year piloting experience most certainly was NOT "glorified bus driving".

However, when GPS technology came along I did stop navigating in the old fashioned sense of plotting courses, headings, allowing for wind drift, compass deviation, etc. etc. on a sheet of paper. (at least when flying familiar routes.)

Like some other members it WAS my experience with Garmin's aviation units that lead to my frustration with the Montana before I learned most of it's quirks and made peace with it (a two year process that is still ongoing).

I use it in the dirt on the TW, on the pavement with the BMW, and in the truck on long trips through strange cities, and for the most part it does what I have learned to expect (NOT what I expected at first), and I am happy with it....except for the damn zoom buttons!

However, if I ever trade my F650GS in for an R1200GS I will probably splurge on a BMW Navigator/Zumo, mostly because then I can zoom with the left grip controller!
I come from a similar place. I started doing lots of map and compass when I was a teenager (also did "adventure riding" long before anyone called it that on an '80 DP). My interest in that and meteorology is a big part of what pushed me into getting my pilot certificate when I was about 22.

I'm generally not interested in responding to ignorant trolls though.

I've always been fascinated with all forms of navigation and even taught myself celestial navigation for kicks.


I have been plenty let down by the floptana. Unlike you I'm afraid I'll probably never "make peace with it" and be happy with it though. It seems I should have accepted to continue using two GPS's (I like redundancy anyway) and got a much different unit, but the lure of a do-all sucked me in. Now I have a unit that's not really that good at anything and I'll have to go purchase something that wasn't put together by handheld guys that clearly don't have the appropriate vehicular navigation skill sets or priorities or whatever. My present handhelds are ok so the floptana brings almost nothing to the table for me as a handheld and in fact is worse than the other handhelds due to it's size and heavy power consumption.

Frankly I think the floptana may not even position as well as some of those older handhelds. It may be that the GNSS position noise filter is having problems because there's simply more noise. I think I may go and do a comparison by taking positions from surveyed points with several GPS's including some high-end board level ones I've got at random times after they have lock on the entire constellation. Maybe do some scatter plots from logs taken at the same time (same constellation that way) to see how they compare...

Oh well...
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Old 10-20-2013, 10:03 PM   #9773
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Interesting stuff...

I just did a very quick logging of 15min of positions at 1Hz (900pts) at identical times with the floptana and an old 76Cx. I put them about 1m apart laying horizontally on a fiberglass table with a clear view of the sky. I let them "warm up" for 15 min before I plotted the logged data. As an aside, the 76 had WAAS diff *much* faster than the floptana.

The horizontal scatter plots are 15m x 15m with 1m divisions. The first point is the origin (0,0). If you haven't seen these before they are sort of pictures of the horizontal GNSS position noise.



Floptana




76





They are remarkably different. Funny thing is the 76 should have it's optimal performance oriented vertically and the floptana horizontally so from an orientation stand point the 76 should have been handicapped and it has a significantly better plot. I'm getting curious. I'm going to repeat this over a longer time and add a U-blox LEA-6H GNSS eval board to the mix. The U-blox eval board runs at 5Hz (vs 1Hz) and logs a lot of extra data like DOP, number of satellites, etc. that I wish the handhelds did... oh well. I'll run some statistics and maybe even some Fourier transforms if I feel like spending the time....

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Old 10-21-2013, 10:29 AM   #9774
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Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
Seems like we need to keep it simple...

The complaint from many people is that the map swings when the compass is *DISABLED*. This is almost certainly due to GNSS position noise that other GPS's are much better at rejecting. As the term GNSS position noise would imply, it has *NOTHING* to do with the magnetic sensor (compass).
Yes, let's keep it simple.
  1. My Montana 650 has no map swing when in TrackUp orientation and the Compass Mode set to OFF. It does demonstrate position drift as your chart above suggests but this drift is not manifested in large map movements.
  2. My Compass has no offset. It is within acceptable tolerances.

Your unit sounds like it is defective as we have discussed here several times. Garmin Product Support could have remedied this for you while the unit was under warranty but you chose not to engage them -- if I recall correctly.
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:48 AM   #9775
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Originally Posted by DRTBYK View Post
Yes, let's keep it simple.
  1. My Montana 650 has no map swing when in TrackUp orientation and the Compass Mode set to OFF. It does demonstrate position drift as your chart above suggests but this drift is not manifested in large map movements.

Your unit sounds like it is defective as we have discussed here several times. Garmin Product Support could have remedied this for you while the unit was under warranty but you chose not to engage them -- if I recall correctly.
Garmin have replaced my Montana three times (always their decision), so the unit I have now is my fourth, and ALL of my Montana units exhibit the map swing when stopped, with the compass disabled and track up selected.

Anyone can easily duplicate this by using the settings listed in this post and riding along any road and then coming to a stop (intersection, etc).
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Old 10-21-2013, 10:56 AM   #9776
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Garmin have replaced my Montana three times (always their decision), so the unit I have now is my fourth, and ALL of my Montana units exhibit the map swing when stopped, with the compass disabled and track up selected.

Anyone can easily duplicate this by using the settings listed in this post and riding along any road and then coming to a stop (intersection, etc).
Apparently not anyone.
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:40 AM   #9777
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Mine bounces a little bit when I come to a stop and I have track up. It's never been a big deal to me, but I don't stop much. Ha
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Old 10-21-2013, 11:44 AM   #9778
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Apparently not anyone.
I can't duplicate that behaviour. My Montana is as stable as can be.


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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-21-2013, 12:46 PM   #9779
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Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
There is probably no ability to contribute much to this discussion from those having the perspective that my floptana is defective.

I'm very comfortable that in identical environments mine will behave the same as any other floptana that is functioning normally. If they don't behave the same, it's the operating environment that's different. The symptoms I see are reported by plenty too.

I tend to presume that anyone that puts forward the notion that I have a defective floptana is most likely trolling, either that or they are ignorant regarding GPS's and GNSS technology in general. Or both.

Oh well...
Seriously? Trolling? For what? I have no stake in Garmin. I eval any/all GPS units that I think are worthy of use in the Adventure Riding activity.

I accept that you are technically proficient although your reluctance to be a good consumer is baffling. As for my knowledge of GPS technology, my involvement in GPS started with my work on NavStar in 1972. I have degrees in Electrical and Mechanical Engineering and a Wildlife Ecology degree (for personal interests).

I would agree there is little discussion left in this topic.
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Old 10-21-2013, 01:37 PM   #9780
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More plots...

These are from 15:10 to 18:25UTC this morning...

Floptana



76
(at same scale as floptana)



76
(scaled to fit)



Ublox
(at the 76 scaled to fit scale)


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