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Old 07-15-2011, 05:42 PM   #151
McAdoo
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:38 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitas View Post
The recommendation pressure is the one where the tire carry the described load under the described speed. This is necessary for Homologation.The wear should be smooth under this condition.
So what pressure is recommended for C-02 front/rears? I'm on a KTM 690E, with no luggage (12.5L fuel tank is on the back with this bike though).

Will be riding mostly gravel with some rocky sections (fist sized sharp rocks... the kind that destroy most tyres in a single ride). Probably a bit of mud here and there too, and a hundred k's or so of highway.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:22 PM   #153
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keep it public

@ MITAS and Rucksta ...

Keep the thread public ... I'm learning plenty

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Old 07-15-2011, 08:32 PM   #154
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+ 6 for me

Without the input from the vendors this is just another tyre thread and I'm just another wanker with an opinion.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:38 PM   #155
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as above :)

Love reading this thread, (and ive ordered an e-07 & e-09)
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Old 07-15-2011, 11:22 PM   #156
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+ whatever number we are up to.

I am planning a RTW trip next year and this thread has been invaluable.

So Mitas here is a question for you.

The Bike: 950KTM
The Load: 2 people + luggage.
The Route: UK across Northern Eurpore - into Russia, Mongolia, back into Russia then across India, Pakistan and Iran and back into Europe.

What Tyres from your range would you use?
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:50 AM   #157
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So I may have missed it but what pressures are being recommended for the E-09s on a 650 loaded dirt and sealed?
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:53 AM   #158
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So I may have missed it but what pressures are being recommended for the E-09s on a 650 loaded dirt and sealed?
Not quite sure there ever was a firm recomendation.
There are so many variables.

My interpretation of the advice from Mitas is that the manufacturers recomended pressure will give the maximum stability at speed and greatest tyre life.
He's also saying reduced pressure to increase performance will shorten the life of a tyre sometimes in a short distance.
Other paraphrases are that there is more to the picture than just $/km and it is up to the rider to find what works best for themselves.

Here's a couple of aditional ideas to help you find your way.

There is an old maxim with tyre pressure to start at a cold pressure that will build heat to increase the pressure to +10% when hot.
This works differently for front and rear tyres on an ADV bike as the front doesn't really build a lot of heat compared to the rear.
It's not like the temp increase you get on a car or a sports bike but it can still be usefull.

Another maxim is to never adjust the pressure on a hot tyre but that is hard to avoid sometimes.

With the E09 there are two vesions with different construction but the same tread patern.
I think the Dakar is 6 ply tread face 4 ply sidewall and the non Dakar is 4 and 2
(Mitas please correct me if I'm wrong there's already so much tyre misinformation out there.)

Here's some opinion

The Dakar version requires a greater pressure drop to make it compliant on loose surfaces but the sidwalls retain stability better than the non Dakar version.

Another factor is your rim width.
A 140 on a 2.15 rim will bow the sidewalls and produce a cushion effect.
It is also more prone to tuck or fold under high cornering loads compared to the same tyre at the same pressure on a 2.75 rim.
A narrow rim will make the cross section curvier keeping more rubber on the road at high lean angles and wear the centre section faster in straight ahead riding.

High(er) pressures wear the centre section faster and lower pressures wear the areas next to the centre.
This is more pronounced on the front that the back.

On the back the first indicators of wear are often the edges of the block rather than the hight.
If the edges just off centre are more rounded than the edges at the central block pressure is too low.
If the centre is chopping too quickly especially at speed on seal the pressure is high.

And some vary sparing advice

Keep an eye on the wear pattern and find what works best for you.

Start at 27 front & rear on and and work down (posibly up) from there.
Do not run less pressure than you absolutly have to.

edit

Why do my posts always end up so long why can't I just say 26psi is my target at temperature for highway running
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:32 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rucksta View Post

Why do my posts always end up so long why can't I just say 26psi is my target temperature on highway running
Because 26psi isn't a temperature
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:27 PM   #160
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Because 26psi isn't a temperature
fixed
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:44 PM   #161
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Hi folks ,... I took a free time during the weekend ...
I will come back today to answer all ...
( give me a note if I forgot some)

I really appreciate your feedback to this tread...


:-)
@admins .. what should I do ?

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Old 07-18-2011, 12:35 AM   #162
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Well it's obvious they think you are pushing an agenda, which you are a bit and that's natural

The only way to appease the admin's is to reinstate direct ordering door to door...very hush hush though so the dealers don't get wind of it.
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:06 AM   #163
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Back in civilisation, so wanted to address couple of the points that were brought up.

I'll post up new pictures (and manufacturing dates) before replacing the tires, but they're nearing 10.000km now and they had a hard run on tar since the last post and somehow stopped wearing. I reckon they will be good in Asia for at least 12-14.000km. I tried to run them on sand again 2 days ago with road pressures (out to Steep Point on a recently graded sand track), then dropped to the usual one and I got to say they still work ok, although the front was sideways more than I liked. The rear is now eating into the rubber band in the middle, so it spins easily on hard pack and since it started raining 2 days ago, rear braking performance on wet tar is pretty crap as well.

Few questions first to MITAS:

- what's the main point of the strip in the middle of the E07 rear? Looks like it could be a bit shallower, so the useful bite in the middle is increased. This calls for more underinflation. I got on the the Windjana Gorge Road with the tire about 8500km into it's death, which is a sandy track with some creek crossings. I started out on road pressures, was sliding all over the place. Then I stopped at a few spots and gradually came down to about 1.8bar, where the external knobs start to bite even in upright position. I understand the implications of adjusting the warm tire but I more looked at the profile and it worked out.

- is the material of that band the same as the rest of the tire? I noticed something really strange happening. When I run it on tar for a long time, it looks like all the pattern over the strip is gone and is worn level. Then I run it on dirt a bit and some thread starts showing up in that area again. Only explanation I can find is that the knobs have different density than the band.

@Rucksta about the E09 front:

"Centre row sitting proud with little wear means the tire has been run under inflated.
The centre row compresses out of the way of the wear and lets the next two blocks take the load."

That sounds like a logical explanation, but it's not the case. The tire spent a lot more time on tar overinflated than on dirt. I noticed (and has been reported by others) the same thing happening with the MT21 before, where the second row would be gone, yet the middle one almost intact (just rounded).

"Row 2 out has taken some wear but not the significant braking wear of row 3. This suggest to me the tyre has been running at around the correct pressure for a significant part of its life e.g take on fuel & air for a long transport on tar or hard pack."

"The wear on row 3 is typical of coming out of the bush on low pressure and running on hard pack or tar at speed."

I try to avoid this as much as possible, so only run about 85-90 when the pressure is low.

"Row 5 is almost untouched with the chicken strips remaining upright, expected on a long distance ride but they are so intact something is keeping them from contacting the road surface. I'm thinking it's from running the tyre at higher pressures at the time the road surface is good enough to sustain high angles of lean."

I think it's to do with the shape of the tire as well. Unlike most of the dirt tires that have a bit more flat profile with the side knobs protruding, this Dakar is almost round, so would take a fair bit of lean to get those working…which are not really available on SA/NT tar

@Rucksta about the E07 rear:

"The rear tyre wear indicates this rider is not backing into corners and power sliding through (E07s are not so good at this) so the high lean angles are not being achived on dirt."

About right but this has changed during the life of the tire. When I started out, the E07 rear was quite predictable so I could spin it, but in the second half it was more matter of just making it there :)

"The overall condition of the front tyre indicates it did not take a long time to put the distance on as the yellow stripe is in good condition."

A month or so.

"Try the cheaper non Dakar E09 you will likely get 7500K and find the $/Km equation is about the same but the overall performance is better for the demands your riding places on the tyre."

This is again the case of a long distance overland trip vs. local runs. When I needed new tires in Adelaide, they had a bunch of MX/enduro tires, the MT21 (which I knew wouldn't last) and this Dakar. I wanted a matching rear but all they had was the E07. I'm glad I tried these, I like this combination and they seem to be wearing together.

"I'm not suggesting chucking tyres at 2.500k but these have 7,500 and you are shooting for 10,000K. Try the cheaper non Dakar E09 you will likely get 7500K and find the $/Km equation is about the same but the overall performance is better for the demands your riding places on the tyre."

It's more of a logistical problem. If I can run these for 12-13k in Asia vs. say 8k, that's one or two tire changes less overall during the entire 50.000km trip, which is a big deal for me.


@MITAS, various comments:

"Airpressure is unfortunately not a question of marketing.You need to have this "element" to sustain the rubber - "wrapping"…"

Didn't say that. I understand how the pressure effects the wear, but as everything with dualsport/adv style use, it's a compromise. Since I can't swap tires every 100km, I alter the pressure to make them suit better and scare me less.

"The recommendation pressure is the one where the tire carry the described load under the described speed. This is necessary for Homologation.The wear should be smooth under this condition."

Would you by any chance have a photo of these tires run in a lab that represents the perfect wear pattern? That would give us a good indication of what to aim for out on the trails.

"In accordance to your demand (40/60).... you don´t need a E-09( Dakar) in the front."

This is why I don't like the classifications used by most manufacturers about offroad rating of these DS tires. If the overall distance is say 10.000km and 40% of that is sandy gravel, I would rather bloody have a decent from tire, especially that logistically I don't gain anything out of a better lasting front if the rear needs to be replaced.

I think this is a fairly decent coupling, unfortunately this is I believe illegal in Europe. Rucksta thinks similar: "I'm sorry to have to tell you for me that sweet combination is not E09 front and rear."
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:52 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k0diak View Post

Would you by any chance have a photo of these tires run in a lab that represents the perfect wear pattern? That would give us a good indication of what to aim for out on the trails. Oh yes please.

"In accordance to your demand (40/60).... you don´t need a E-09( Dakar) in the front."

This is why I don't like the classifications used by most manufacturers about offroad rating of these DS tires. If the overall distance is say 10.000km and 40% of that is sandy gravel, I would rather bloody have a decent from tire,."
How about a rating system like 70/45 for a tyre where you can expect 70% of the performance expected from an 'typical' road tyre and 45% of the performance expected from an 'typical' knobby.

Of course typical is going to be subjective but when I look at some of the 'rating" information as to suitability in sand, mud, rocks, hardpack & soft (Michelin * Metzler do this )it varies somewhat from my experience and I find it very subjective anyway.
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Old 07-18-2011, 02:01 AM   #165
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thats true...

Pls .. folks ... give me the time to give adequate answers... 1 by 1
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